live 75/150 mix games hand

[DeathDonkey]

I'm bad at omaha/8 so please bare with me. And yes I know if I'm bad at omaha/8 playing it at 75/150 might be a mistake, you'll just have to trust me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

4 handed game, UTG raises, I coldcall on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I'm happy to discuss preflop if this isn't close, I expect a 4 way pot every time fwiw. Both blinds call.

Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] SB bets, BB calls, UTG raises, I 3 bet. Thoughts on 3 betting vs coldcalling and raising good turn cards? SB calls, BB folds, UTG 4 bets, I cap, both call.

Turn is 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I'm feeling like this is a good turn card. Checked to me, I bet, SB checkraises, UTG check 3 bets.

UTG is probably the best player in the game though I doubt he is a lot better than me (meaning we are both mediocre but huge favorites in this game), SB is an ok player but I doubt his o/8 experience and I think basically he's a holdem player who has a clue in this game and is very aggressive. I felt strongly he had 23 on the flop and so far I have no reason to change that opinion on the turn.

So after UTG 3 bets the turn should my thought process be on the "crying call and hope to get to showdown cheap" side, on the "oh baby cap it up I've got the nutsssss" side, or somewhere in the middle?

Thanks for any thoughts,
DeathDonkey

[HOWMANY]

I think you played this hand great and I didn't have what I said I had at the time. I'm not really sure I should have let myself get jammed in here but the pot kept getting bigger and I kept convincing myself that I could get half of it often enough.

From playing with him the past couple times in these games I think Roc plays the key moments of an 8 or better hand very well as I saw him jam players in correctly almost every time the situation came up.

[2handed]

I play preflop and flop the same way, sometimes 3betting preflop to isolate if that will work in the game and if UTG plays badly postflop. I may or may not bet the turn, and usually would lean towards checking behind, particularly if this check-3bet is liable to happen due laggy and aggro oppononents. In spots like this where you have effectively zero chance at the low side and there are straight and flush draws out I am inclined to check behind with 44 88 or AK. Once you get double checkraised on the turn I probably calldown here in a four handed aggro game, but a fold isnt bad IMO. Even when you are against two low hands, one of these players typically has a low wrap like 235x or some other straght and flush possibilities with there low so
you still may only be a 2-1 favorite for the high side. And then of course there are the times you are up against AA or KK and drawing to one out for the pot. These hands will be out there more you would initially expect.

This is a pretty standard bad spot in O8, where you are holding a vulnerable 3rd or 4th nut hand in a multiway pot with no low. My general advice on this spot in shorthanded games is to be cautious and to try to showdown cheaply. Getting trapped for multiple bets on the turn or river should be avoided, even if it may sometimes cost you half a bet of value on your high hand.

btw, what games were in the mix and where was this? I would love to play a LHE/O8 at these levels but never seem to find one when I am at casinos (which isnt that often lately).

[franknagaijr]

I think the turn card was not terribly favorable for you, since your chances on the low side are minimal unless you were already crushed on the high side, and there's bound to be at least one flush draw still in the hand. 8 for a rainbow would have been slightly better, and a 9 rainbow would have made me want to jam the pot.

I would have slowed down on this turn and tried to get to showdown cheaply. I don't play these stakes FWIW.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
btw, what games were in the mix and where was this? I would love to play a LHE/O8 at these levels but never seem to find one when I am at casinos (which isnt that often lately).

[/ QUOTE ]

This day we played holdem, o/8, crazy pineapple/8, and omaha high (yes limit). The game is moving around San Diego wherever Crazy Mike and co. go, this time it was at Sycuan indian casino where the biggest game they have going is 3/6 limit or 1/2 NL usually so you would have to know someone to find us [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

That said on the off chance you are around San Diego you would be welcome to play.

-DeathDonkey

[WMB]

Preflop I might fold this unless your opponents are bad and I have a real good read on them. You have fairly week high prospects, 2nd low. Hard to scoop here in an aggressive 4 handed game. I do think its close though and with the button I'd call also.
I pretty much agree with 2handed's thoughts on the rest of the hand. After you're 3-bet on the turn, I'd try to showdown cheap.

[wiseheart]

Preflop is fine. I use to think raising flop here is good, but over the years bottom set has really just been a drain for me, so I would actually flip a coin here to decide between folding/calling. Given the looseness of your opps I don't think raising is getting them to fold.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
4 handed game, UTG raises, I coldcall on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I'm happy to discuss preflop if this isn't close, I expect a 4 way pot every time fwiw. Both blinds call.

[/ QUOTE ]

We could discuss three-betting, and the pros and cons of trying to get this hand heads up, but if it's going to be 4 handed, calling seems reasonable.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] SB bets, BB calls, UTG raises, I 3 bet. Thoughts on 3 betting vs coldcalling and raising good turn cards? SB calls, BB folds, UTG 4 bets, I cap, both call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the raise here. You've flopped bottom set. There's no low yet. From your description of the game, you opponents will be playing with a lot of stuff here, including a paired ace, two pair, and low draws. Since UTG raised btf and 4-bets here, it might be good to pause and think about how much of his range consists of AAxx. There's only one AA left (setting aside the xx of AAxx) but there's 6 AKs and a whole bunch of other hands that have been hit by this flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I'm feeling like this is a good turn card. Checked to me, I bet, SB checkraises, UTG check 3 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's some bad stuff about this 8c. One bad thing is that it has enabled low, and now you're playing for half the pot. Another bad thing is that it's a high low card, and doesn't really promote your 3 should another low card come on the river. The fact that it's a club gives you some club outs to the bottom flush.

SB wakes up and check-raises after low comes on the turn. It's possible he has made a good low. (Was this a game where players were waiting for fourth street to start jamming?) When UTG 3-bets, does it mean he's going low also? I can't put him there since he's been raising all the time. He may be anywhere. Actually, from your description of the players, it's hard to know where any of them could be.

On the river, any card other than a nine enables a straight.
You got some information about your opponents by betting 4th, but I might have considered checking.

It looks like you are going to be whipsawed on the river. Once UTG 3-bets the river, I would go ahead and cap it. I don't want to show fear here. If I do, SB will cap it anyway. By capping, I may put the fear of being quartered into any lows, and get to lay my hand cheaply on the river. Maybe. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hope you hit a 4 on the river...

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
So after UTG 3 bets the turn should my thought process be on the "crying call and hope to get to showdown cheap" side, on the "oh baby cap it up I've got the nutsssss" side, or somewhere in the middle?

[/ QUOTE ]Death Donkey - I don't know what your thought process should be. My own thought process on reading your post was, "DD's getting 3 to 1 reverse implied pot odds for calling the double bet." And then, "I wonder if UTG really has the set of aces he seems to be representing." And then immediately, "Would UTG bluff more often than one time out of four here?"

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts on 3 betting vs coldcalling and raising good turn cards? SB calls, BB folds, UTG 4 bets, I cap, both call.

[/ QUOTE ]The games in Los Angeles are three raise max. Thus if I made it three bets, there would only be one raise left. I'd be representing a very strong hand if I three bet. And then I could call a re-raise to four bets and still look very strong. But to accomplish the same thing in a four raise max game, if you get re-raised, you have to make it five bets total to cap. Bottom line: I like three-betting this in Los Angeles, but not in Las Vegas (which generally has a four raise limit). The betting pattern already looks like UTG is representing a hand held pair of aces. So in Los Angeles, I three bet it and in Las Vegas I back off and fold to the double bet.

It would hurt me to fold to the double bet, but I don't like chasing with bottom set when it looks a lot like I might be up against top set.

At any rate, I would fold this hand on the second betting round.

But you continue. O.K. Not unreasonable. I hate allowing myself to be intimidated and admire your courage. (I'm not being sarcastic).

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I'm feeling like this is a good turn card. Checked to me, I bet, SB checkraises, UTG check 3 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a good card for you because it enables low for somebody else. Not only does that mean you're only playing for half of the pot, it also will be harder for you to determine if the bets or raises are coming from a high hand or a low hand trying-to-promote-a-weakish-high.

At any rate, it's checked to you and you bet. Fine.

But then BB check-raises and UTG check-three-bets. Yikes!!

And now the first question you have to answer,
"Would UTG bluff more often than one time out of four here?"

Assuming UTG is a good poker (not necessarily Omaha-8) player, I think UTG would bluff more than one time out of four if he thought you would fold more than one time out of four.

So before you answer the first question, you have to answer a second question, "Does UTG think you would fold more than one time out of four?" And then the first question more or less answers itself.

If you do fold here, I can almost guarantee UTG, if a good poker player, will bluff the next time you're in a similar situation.

When I get into these spots, it seems to me that I would have done better to have somehow avoided them. And so I hate low pairs in starting hands, at least against tough opponents, because they seem to often lead to very tough situations like this one.

I'd play this starting hand, but then I'd avoid this situation by swallowing my pride and meekly folding to the double bet on the flop.

Buzz

[2handed]

Now that I look back on flop action folding there is not a bad play, but four-handed neither is raising. The worst play on the flop is probably calling.