(1/2) top straight on Turn but 2 flush draws

gortster · #1 09-29-2006, 11:41 PM

This is my first post. Sorry about the hand history. I can't find a converter that does crypto, so i did it by hand.

I hit the A-high straight on the turn, but there are 2 flush draws--any one of those 18 cards on the River could have me beat. The pot is so big I don't want to fold, but the other two people in the hand are raising like crazy, so I am worried I will call a ton of bets and lose to the flush on the River, or the board will pair and I will lose to FH.

Should I cut my losses and lay down the hand, or call all these bets on the Turn and cross my fingers? I cold call 2 bets on the Turn, and then it's another 2 bets to me still on the Turn. I would think cold calling 2 bets twice on one street is horrible poker. But can I lay this down?

No read on UTG+1. My read on CO is that he is the worst player I have ever seen. Earlier against him I flopped 4 Aces -- the flop came A-A-A -- and we went 13!!! bets on the turn (no cap on crypto skins when you're heads up). He had pocket 3s, and the turn was 5, so there were at least 20 hands that he was drawing dead against when he put in all those bets.

Hold'em FL ($1/$2) - 2006/09/29 - 21:34:04 (ET)
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to gorter [Ad Qh]
hero raises $2; UTG+1 raises $3; CO calls; 2 folds; BB calls; hero calls

----- FLOP ----- [8c Kc Td]
BB checks; hero checks; UTG+1 bets $1; CO calls $1; BB folds; hero calls

----- TURN ----- [8c Kc Td][Jd]
hero checks; UTG+1 bets $2; CO raises $4; hero calls $4; UTG+1 raises $4; CO raises $4; hero?

I will post River and results later.

kimchi · #2 09-30-2006, 12:29 AM

So you turn the nuts and you're thinking about folding? You talk about cutting your losses....what losses? You have the best hand. You might be outdrawn, but it's more likely you won't. You have 2 opponents with the nuts.

I would donk this flop to see where I am. You have a gutshot to the nuts and an overcard - probably not clean though.

The turn check is ok as it looks likely someone will bet after you. You were given a gift - you check the nuts and it gets bet and raised after you.

You could just call this and go along for the ride, ready to pump a non paired/non flushed river card.

I would have check-raised them on the turn and out my money in while I was ahead. You cold called the turn and they raised again after you. This is another spot where more money should be invested by you.

I think the uncapped HU betting on Cryptos sometimes needs a slight adjustment in strategy.

If I have a monster hand, I sometimes like to isolate a manic whom I think has a strong hand, but not as strong as mine. This allows you to go for the uncapped betting on later streets.

I've put in 31 bets on the river this way before. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

emKay · #3 09-30-2006, 06:32 AM

http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter/

gortster · #4 09-30-2006, 11:08 AM

Thanks for the link. Here is the hand again all fancy converted:
Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.5SB, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.75BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: ???? (19.75BB, 3 players)

Perhaps a better question is,

a) what to do if the River comes up a club or a diamond?

b) what to do if the River comes up pairs the board?

For sure I call 1 bet to show down Nut Straight against a potential flush/boat. But here I reckon I may have to call 4 bets to showdown.

Pot after turn is 20BB. Based on Turn, I figure I am putting in 4BB to showdown the hand so I would have to call 4 bets to win 28 = 7:1. Is that worth a showdown against 2 other players who are raising? What are the chances on a capped River that

a) the third club/diamond didn't give one of the the flush
b) the board pairing didn't give one of the the boat

emKay · #5 09-30-2006, 11:43 AM

Man that turn play is horrible. The idea of check/raise is good but don't forget to RAIIISSSSEEE it up. U have teh total nutzz zomg!!!!
River: OK they've shown alot of strengh and it's fair to assume one of them very likely has a set. When the board pairs I check and call when it's one back to me, else I fold. When one of the flush cards hits dunno but try hard to get to SD. Else: RRRAAAIIIISSSEEEEEEEE it up.

shpanko · #6 09-30-2006, 02:04 PM

A wise player once gave me some good advice and that is that if you're playing limit hold em never fold the nuts. Seriuosly are you crazy? These guys are probably holding two pair, a set, or a lower straight. Yeah if the board pairs on the river that sucks but you have the nuts on the turn and I really doubt there are any flush draws out there and nobody is freerolling on you with diamonds because you have the A of diamonds. THis is low limit, limit hold em. C/R the turn and raise any non-board pairing river. You can't play scared like this man or you'll get crushed. You have the nuts, the bets possible hand and you are talking about folding. What hand are you looking for jesus christ?!?!

gortster · #7 09-30-2006, 03:05 PM

Thanks for the feedback. Well, you are all right. I saw the river, it was a blank, and then same crazy betting. I figure I'm splitting the pot with at least one of them, maybe both, but I am not so stupid I won't bet the nuts on the River. I love UTG+1's cold calling 3 bets pre-flop with J8o. I guess I should never underestimate how weak people are at these limits, and how much people love their sets and 2 pair regardless of the board.
Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.5SB, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.75BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (19.75BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 31.75BB
CO shows Jc 8d
Hero shows Ad Qh
UTG+1 mucks Tc Ts

Unguarded · #8 09-30-2006, 03:17 PM

Ok, first of all:
1) You are very rarely against a flush draw. Pound away on the river if a flush card falls. The only time you are in anything resembling trouble in this hand is when someone holds AQs with a flush draw... even then you would be trying to get more money in the pot from the third guy. Don't even think about this bizarre possibility unless things get crazy on the river.
2) I ran a "disaster scenario" through PokerStove. This stuff should be second nature, but hopefully this helps illustrate just how well you are doing here. One villain holds TT and the other holds AQs with a flush draw. Your equity is still 30%! In other words, capping the turn is still absolutely fine. If one villain holds AdKd, and the other holds TT, your equity is almost 60%! When one villain has a set, and the other has 2 pair or a set, your equity is 80%! When both villains hold 2 pair, your equity is between 88 and 95%!
3) Your post clearly indicates that you could benefit tremendously from studying the game a lot more. Books, posting here, thinking about hands you played, etc.

Ok, now to your actual line in the hand. Pre-flop/flop are obviously fine.

Turn: Your plan to C/R the field is good, but calling the bet-raise is absurd. 3-bet, expecting 2 calls most of the the time, and a possible cap. If UTG+1 folds, that is fine... you still may win a ton of bets on the river from CO.

River: If a flush card falls, never, ever fold. Lead the river, and 3-bet if given the chance. If it goes bet-raise-3-bet, then you can just call. If the board pairs, check the river and call one bet back to you. You can fold to check-bet-raise.

Edit: I should have mentioned why you are very rarely against a flush draw on the turn. When villains bet-raise here, it usually means both of their cards are already in use. One of them would need to specifically have AQs, Q9s, JcTc, or a king with 2 diamonds for it to make any sense for them to play this way with a flush draw.