Straight draw being raised by a lower 'made straight'

[SplawnDarts]

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In a cash game I totally agree with you. In a tournament, I believe your drawing hands, and especially str8 draws, go way down in value. Keep in mind that you have to win back all the chips you lose in a turny, and once you bust you are out. When I do choose to play a draw in a turny, I like to do so as cheaply as possible until I have made my hand.

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20BB seems plenty deep to me - isn't this exactly the place to make moderately risky but massively +EV plays and take the chip lead? The way I see it if I hit my 50% shot I'm table captain, and if I miss I'm just in the middle of the pack.

Out of curiosity, how deep would you need to be, or how short would seat 1 (and possibly 3) need to be, before you would like aggressive 4th street play? I'd like to understand the other position here because I may be wrong.

[trickyAAA]

Splawn darts,

Your points are well taken, and I understand why you have the point of view that you do. There is more than one way to approach a hand or a tury, so I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I would do it differently.

Also, I believe the hero only has 11BB here, not 20, or am I misreading? With 20BB maybe I change to your way of thinking, although, I still tend to be conservative with this type of hand in a turny.

Seat 1 is the problem here. I am not worried about seat three except for the fact that I know he is ready to put his chips on the table, so expect re-raising from him. I want to control the betting in this situation by checking and calling so that the players who are dying to get their chips on the table can only do so after I have made my hand.

If seat one had only 5 or 6k, I would jam the pot to see if he was ready to get all in, and hopefully take out two players with a smaller investment. In this case, I have to invest half my stack before I can take him out, and most of it is going in before I make my hand. If I lose the hand, I am left with only 5 bb.

When I raise on fourth, if seat one calls, he has put over a quarter of his stack in, has a little more than 4bb left and is pot committed. He is likely to want to get all his chips in as well. I am already resigned to calling this down to the river after fourth where I am getting a minimum of 6 to 1 on the pot, but that means at least two more big bets, or a quarter of my stack. So, the situation on fourth after I raise, in my view, is - I have invested about a quarter of my stack in this pot, and I have queen high at this point. I am definitely calling fifth and sixth so, I know I am going to invest another quarter of my stack in this pot. So hear I am with queen high, against a player who seems to want action, and half my stack is going in no matter what. Although the situtaion is largely +EV if this were a cash game, I have a big enough stack before the hand to wait for a better spot. There are several smaller stacks, who, when they go out, will move me up in the money.

Contrast this to not raising on fourth - after fourth I have put 2k in the pot, I still have 20k left. I get my card on fourth, check, seat three bets 2k and seat one and i call. Now I have 4k in the pot, 18k in my stack. If i miss fifth and have to see sixth, I am sitting with 14k left as long as I just check and call. I have saved myself several bets along the way. Once I hit my card, the raising starts, and I decide when we get all the chips in instead of letting the other player have some say in that decision.

Anyway, this is my thinking. I am interested in hearing your thoughts about my strategy.

[SplawnDarts]

[ QUOTE ]
Splawn darts,

Your points are well taken, and I understand why you have the point of view that you do. There is more than one way to approach a hand or a tury, so I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I would do it differently.

Also, I believe the hero only has 11BB here, not 20, or am I misreading?

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[censored], you're right. I feel my play is far more marginal now, but I definitely love running in front in limit tourneys. I realize that's contrary to chip-value theory for tourneys though.

Man the overlay's pretty big here. I think I go for broke and play a medium stack (but with a full hand worth of bets, which is sort of the breakpoint) if I miss. My decision might well depend on when the next blind increase is going to be. If it's a ways off and I have a reasonable chance to double up before then if I miss, I'm pretty sure I go.

[SplawnDarts]

I think part of the reason that I favor putting cash in on 4th is that, with some possible hole cards, I want to get seat 1 committed so that he can't get away if I hit - ie. my implied odds improve by betting. I'm worried that a good read lets him get away, although online and with these particular cards that's not really an issue. But it's not clear what he's doing as of 4th so it's hard to balance all of the concerns.

Having an extra bet in the stack if you miss is very attractive however, and my mis-calculation of stack depths led me to ignore it.

We've got a real sticky one here.

[trickyAAA]

More good points regarding how long until the blinds go up, and pushing with a marginal stack in this spot. Although I would rather have a flush draw on fourth, if I was at about 6k at the start of the hand, I would be looking to get em all in figuring I either double up, or I'm done. There wouldn't be enough to play with afterwards to justify not going for the full double up.

With 22k in my stack, if the limit was about to go up, I would also lean more toward your position. I guess the bottom line is if you are real deep or small you can push the action, but if you have a relatively large stack in comparison to the other stacks but not in comparison to the ante's, you can wait for another spot.

Another thing to think about here is that with the size of the original poster's stack, relative to the other players he can be stealing a good deal. It doesn't take too long before those steals make up for the value you give up by passing on this draw or not pushing the action when you hit the draw. So, if getting involved in draws like this during a turny potentially limits your ability to steal antes if you don't hit, you need to consider that when deciding your course of action.