Issues at 25c/50c up to 1/2 Stud Hi

[Poker CPA]

Air Bradley

"Will you please stop calling me that. I'm not challenging you to anything. How stupid. Grow up man."

Weak/tight as usual.

[SA125]

I've said it other posts. I've played a lot of stud and both limit and NL holdem. I think the fact that you're rarely that far ahead in stud reduces the edge you have over lesser players. MM says the edge is bigger in stud. I think that because of the huge impact the flop can have on hands, good holdem players enjoy a bigger edge than in stud. Especially in NL.

[Brad1970]

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Bear based on the stats you posted the advice by "Air" is horrible.

"Anyway, looking at your analysis of your game above & from previous posts, it seems that you need to tighten your starting hand requirements a little for stud. When your draws start going south on 4th & definitely by 5th...fold."

24% VPIP is very acceptable and, if anything, loosen up a bit and be more aggresive, the 6% is just weak/tight. The 6% indicates you are only raising with High pairs (1.3% x 4, plus steals), thereby exposing your cards to the better players. You might as well lay your cards face up. Major error. Gotta go but will be back.

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Bear it means, at the very least your hand reading skills are very bad. You see and understand your hand, but not the board. These stats are losers at FTP, which is where you play I think. Try Stars but I think holdem is a better choice. And remember to buckle up. Good luck


According to the passage above from earlier today, you told JerBear that his stats were losers. Now they're acceptable??? Which is it? Pick a side of the fence & stay on it.

[Andy B]

I vacillated between locking this thread and responding to some of the actual issues which have been brought up. I'm replying for now, but if the dung-flinging continues, it will be locked.

I don't read hands particularly well, and I'm slow to act on my reads anyway, and I do OK. Well, when my read says "call," I call, and when my read says "fold," I call just in case.

There is more to this game than third street play, and you seem to indicate that you're losing money on the later streets. Read the rest of 7CS4AP and get back to us.

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2) When you make your draws they are quite obvious so you have to trap opponents to get the maximum payouts.

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I can't see this being the best way to play $1/2 LHE. I grant you I play about everything but LHE online, but I've played a fair amount of LHE live at limits ranging from $2/4 to $30/60, and being trappy is not the best way to get the money. They may "know" you have a flush, but they're calling anyway. NLHE is a different animal.

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By 5th if i don't at least have a set or a strong draw I can probably give my hand up??

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This is far too weak-tight. If I have Aces, I'm seeing the showdown more often than not.

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I hardly start with any 3cardst8 because ive read that they usually are losers unless handled correctly, where i know i don't.

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Probably from me. Three-card straights can be profitable hands if played well. Most players lose money with them, mostly because they don't know when to get away from them, and I don't make much off of them.

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3 card flushes I will continue with if there's only 2 or less doorcards. If i don't improve on 4th, i almost always continue to 5th, which might be a little loose.

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It depends on how much it costs and what you're up against, but with two out, you should probably be leaning towards folding. "Almost always" continuing when you blank off on fourth is too loose. You need to have something going for you--high cards, a straight possibility, exceptionally live flush cards, etc.

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Pairs i will continue with if my cards are live or if i have 2 or 3 overcards to the board.

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Playing something like (6T)6 for a full bet just because your cards are live is going to get you in trouble. Evaluating whether to play a pair and how to play that pair can be pretty complicated. I refer you to 7CS4AP.

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If villian pairs doorcard with "live" cards, then do we assume he has 2 pair already and/or a set?

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Paired door cards are scary things, and we would do well to give them our respect. How likely that paired door card is to have given the other guy a monster depends on how consistent his play is with having started with a split pair. Say he raises coming in with a King in the door and catches another King. It's fairly likely that he has trip Kings, and with a tight, predictable player it is overwhelmingly likely that he has trip Kings, so you should fold almost every time. If he had limped with that same King and caught a King, it's less likely that he has trips, so you might continue with a strong draw or Aces. In general, if he has reasonable starting standards, even if he doesn't have trips, he probably has a good hand on fourth, so you should be doing a lot of folding. Paired door cards become a lot less scary when the other guy is playing 75% of his hands, though.

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Also, it is best in stud to be drawing to the nut flush, not some smaller flush that could lose even if you made it.


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There is no such thing as a "nut flush" in stud, and second-best flushes aren't all that common.

[Poker CPA]

24% VPIP is acceptable, but not combined with a 6% 3rd street raise %. He needs to be more aggressive and to open up a bit, not as you say, "Tighten UP".

As far as losing stats, I believe his results over 5000 hands and his state of mind tells us all we need to know.

If you care to debate his stats any further, please feel free to defend your position of tightening up. I welcome your input or anyone else who cares to take your side.

I stand by my first response in regards to his comment about abandoning ship. "Get a life jacket"

[electrical]

You are getting good advice here. Maybe I can help illuminate some things as well.
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When you make your draws they are quite obvious so you have to trap opponents to get the maximum payouts.

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Unclear whether this is in regard to your holdem play or stud, but in stud this assertion is flat wrong. In stud, rather than trapping, you need to bet your equity positions to make the pot pay you to make your draws. Trapping is rarely a good play because good players can get away from their hands, and bad players are often getting proper odds (or implied odds) to run you down. Very few hands are strong enough in stud to slow play, and when they are, it is usually only for one or two streets.

Instead of laying low and dropping the boom on the big bet streets, you should be value betting with a strong hand or draw to get the money in the pot before your opponent has an opportunity to get away, and so it will be there when you do make your hand.

That's not to say deception has no part, just that "trapping" as practiced in flop games won't work when your opponent knows what most of your cards are, and knows what cards you cannot possibly have.

Let's say you have (3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to start, and you complete the bet. You have created deception by representing split Aces, while you are actually drawing. If you catch a little spade, you can bet for value and the card will look innocuous, so you will get action. If you catch an Ace or broadway card, your board may be threatening enough to induce a fold from an opponent who may be beating you. If on Fifth street you have a live pair and a four-flush with a gutshot, you are a significant favorite over a larger pair without these redraws, and a small favorite over Kings up, and your board will not look particularly threatening, so you'll get action.

There are many such situations and you need to learn to identify when you have an overlay (even if you are not a favorite). For instance, if you have a small pair and a hidden Ace on Third, and you believe your opponent has a pair of Tens, you can often create a situation where the pot is offering you sufficient odds to play from behind, since you are not very far behind, as you would be in Holdem.

This is also an implied odds situation, since if you spike an Ace, you will be in a commanding position and will probably win extra bets.

Having said that, you need to be able to abandon such a hand when the overlay disappears, as when another Ace is exposed or when your opponent appears to make trips.

There is deceptive play in stud, but not in the same sense as holdem, and most of the value comes from betting with an equity edge, not from springing a trap.

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3)C/R works quite well and can be used for semi bluffing.

(Not a chance in Stud IMO at least at these levels)

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Definitely read the Fourth Street chapter in 7CSFAP. The check-raise is an important tool, particularly on 4th street. You can use it to thin the field and get some dead money in the pot, you can use it to get a little more money in the pot if you have made a strong hand, and you can use it to buy free cards on later streets if you are drawing.

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By 5th if i don't at least have a set or a strong draw I can probably give my hand up??

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By Fifth, you need to know where you are with respect to your opponents. Sometimes one pair is ahead and you will know it. Sometimes a straight will be drawing dead and you'll know it.

If you are ahead, Don't play weak hands passively. If one pair is best, make them pay. Try to take the pot now if possible, or at least offer your opponets bad odds to continue.

If you believe you are behind, then you need to know what your equity in the pot is, and that will help make your decision for you. Being behind doesn't mean you don't play, because you will often be getting such an overlay that not playing would cost you money in the long haul.

If you have 25 percent of a pot, and you are being offered 3:1 to continue, then it doesn't matter if you play or not. If you are being offered 4:1, you ought to play. If you have to call two bets cold, and are therefore getting less than 3:1, then you should fold.

Additionally, good players will bluff the river if they have seen you fold there, and you need to factor that into your decisions. If you catch one such river bluff a night, that pot will more than compensate you for those times you call and are beat.

Folding the river too much is a major leak for new players, because they over-value saving a single bet. Often you will be getting odds in excess of 10:1 on that last bet, so you have to be better than 90 percent sure you are beat for a fold to be correct. I'm not 90 percent sure of very much in life.

[SplawnDarts]

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There is no such thing as a "nut flush" in stud, and second-best flushes aren't all that common.

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However, I believe it's correct to say that a large portion of your equity when playing high 3-flushes comes not from the flush but from catching a pair on 4th. As such, it makes sense to evaluate 3-flushes based on how many overcards they're going to have to any opening door cards, which in turn equates to a high flush most of the time.

Obviously, added straight potential might make you ignore the rank of the 3-flush.

[trickyAAA]

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-3 card flushes I will continue with if there's only 2 or less doorcards. If i don't improve on 4th, i almost always continue to 5th, which might be a little loose.


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That's a definite leak. You also want your 3-flushes to be high, since if you back-door into a pair on 4th you want it to have value. That's as much of your outs pool as the flush is. If you don't hit any of those 18 cards (ignoring dead ones) then you need to fold. Even the pair may have limited value if someone else paired a suspicious door card.

When you do play a high 3-flush, against thinking opponents often raise it so that you have a third way to win on 4th - by representing a high split pair you don't have.



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This is excellent advice, particularly the part about being deceptive and raising with high 3 flushes some of the time. You would do well to incorporate this play into your game.