Rolled up against the bring-in: Give free cards or just take it down?

RandomUser · #1 01-25-2007, 03:16 PM

This doesn't happen that often, but I thought I'd see what people thought about it.

Tournament - 7 Card Stud High (1,200/2,400), Ante 200, Bring-In 400 (converter)

Seat 4: 8,068
Seat 5: 7,932
Seat 7: 45,629
Hero: 44,871

3rd Street - (0.67 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (0.67 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (0.67 BB - 1,600)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot 1,600 | Rake 0

Note: this site shuffles the hole cards.

</font>

My initial thought at the time was that he would have bet two pair and that the best decision was to let him have another card.

However, I eventually just bet out and he folded after a moment's hesitation.

The stacks/limits involved probably skewed this situation as well, however. Would your opinion change if I were one of the small stacks instead of the big stack?

cgrohman · #2 01-25-2007, 03:27 PM

I slowplay the heck out of this until 5th just like you did given the cards that are out and stack sizes. However, once he pairs up it is quite reasonable to bet and hope he thinks you are just putting a move on.

Brad1970 · #3 01-25-2007, 03:53 PM

I would have played it the same. Strange how he folded with a paired board & one of the 7's gone already...maybe the Q scared him.

How many spots got paid?

trickyAAA · #4 01-25-2007, 05:26 PM

In this case, I would at least consider raising. If there are a few players behind me, I'll just call to entice them into the pot, hoping they put me on a draw hand. However, here, I raise hoping that the villian puts me on a steal and has some overcards or a pair. Many times you are just going to take down the pot right there, but sometimes, especially if you have an aggressive image and try to steal a lot, you will get action. What is best is when the villian plays back at you. I don't think the way you played it, or what the other posters have said is incorrect, this is just another way to look at the hand. Ultimately, the type of play I am describing will work depending on the table conditions, and the opponents perception of your image. I have made this work before. Another consideration in a turny is how many players are left and how likely the villian is to get involved based on where you are in the money and the size of his stack. In this case, if it was the guy with 44.8K, you would be a lot more likely to make the play I described work.

SplawnDarts · #5 01-25-2007, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have played it the same. Strange how he folded with a paired board & one of the 7's gone already...maybe the Q scared him.

How many spots got paid?

[/ QUOTE ]

He was bring-in. It's likely all he had was the exposed 66, and he can't really call a bettor who can see 100% of his strength unless he's prepared to call to the river to maybe snap a bluff, now can he? And calling to the river would essentially be for his tournament life, and he'd be at collosal risk of being outdrawn even if his read was right.

No one makes that class of call for +EV online. Maybe Stu Unger live, but that's about it.

SplawnDarts · #6 01-25-2007, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In this case, I would at least consider raising. If there are a few players behind me, I'll just call to entice them into the pot, hoping they put me on a draw hand. However, here, I raise hoping that the villian puts me on a steal and has some overcards or a pair. Many times you are just going to take down the pot right there, but sometimes, especially if you have an aggressive image and try to steal a lot, you will get action. What is best is when the villian plays back at you. I don't think the way you played it, or what the other posters have said is incorrect, this is just another way to look at the hand. Ultimately, the type of play I am describing will work depending on the table conditions, and the opponents perception of your image. I have made this work before. Another consideration in a turny is how many players are left and how likely the villian is to get involved based on where you are in the money and the size of his stack. In this case, if it was the guy with 44.8K, you would be a lot more likely to make the play I described work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the fact that your analysis looks at stack sizes, but I don't think you took it far enough. I don't think there's a chance in hell BI-boy gets frisky and puts your on a steal when he has less than 4 BB to play with. He has no speculative calls in his playbook at this point.

In a cash game, with the right image, by all means raise your trips for value.

trickyAAA · #7 01-25-2007, 05:45 PM

Excellent points SplawnDarts, and yes, that play probably doesn't apply exactly to the situtaion the OP was in, but I wanted to bring it up to give another way of thinking about the hand.

SplawnDarts · #8 01-25-2007, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent points SplawnDarts, and yes, that play probably doesn't apply exactly to the situtaion the OP was in, but I wanted to bring it up to give another way of thinking about the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I see what you're saying.

FWIW, I really like betting and raising rolled trips for value because the hand is deceptively stronger than it appears, and that gives you good value bet opportunities the whole way through the hand. But often times you end up representing something pretty big (just not at big as you are) so you need to catch someone in the gap to get any value. This guy obviously isn't in the gap.

FWIW, a raise on 3rd wouldn't have been any worse than a bet on 5th in this case. Either way you're getting squat.

Red_Diamond · #9 01-25-2007, 06:42 PM

I'd just come out raising. You are EXPECTED to steal, so play accordingly. I certainly wouldn't want to give free cards with 0 money going into the pot. Anyhow, how could he not be suspicious of your limp?

SplawnDarts · #10 01-25-2007, 06:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just come out raising. You are EXPECTED to steal, so play accordingly. I certainly wouldn't want to give free cards with 0 money going into the pot. Anyhow, how could he not be suspicious of your limp?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that BI doesn't have enough stack size to defend against a steal. So it's a great place to ACTUALLY steal, but a lousy place to fake the steal.