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  #11  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:38 AM
ClarkNasty ClarkNasty is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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I also think he probably took steroids and/or HGH. I'm very much on the fence with regards to whether he cheated or not

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I figure its all one and the same. I'm definitely not going to get into the semantical debate about that point though.

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Fair enough, as far as a casual opinion.

But if your livelihood and personal freedom depended on it, you probably wouldn't think it was one and the same, or consider it a nitty semantical argument.

It'd be a pretty big deal.

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In fairness, his freedom doesn't depend on whether or not he cheated, it depends on whether or not he broke the law.

And as far as I know, as long as he doesn't fail a drug test (or go to jail for breaking the law), his livelihood shouldn't be threatened.
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  #12  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:44 AM
RedBean RedBean is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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I think he is really close to GOAT, he'd probably get my vote,


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In relative terms, it's obviously Ruth.
In absolute terms, it's obviously Bonds.

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and I also think he probably took steroids and/or HGH.


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I don't think he took any steroids/HGH that were illegal by law or that were banned under the MLB steroid policy.

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the I'm very much on the fence with regards to whether he cheated or not, leaning towards not.

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See above. I don't think he cheated.
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  #13  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:52 AM
RedBean RedBean is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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In fairness, his freedom doesn't depend on whether or not he cheated, it depends on whether or not he broke the law.


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In fairness, his freedom depends on the result of the investigation that stems from it's beginning on the desire to prove that he cheated at baseball.

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And as far as I know, as long as he doesn't fail a drug test (or go to jail for breaking the law), his livelihood shouldn't be threatened.

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I agree completely, but when I say that, apparently it's a semantical argument.
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  #14  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:57 AM
offTopic offTopic is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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For the record, I think that Bonds is both the Greatest of All Time, as well as a cheater, but I really don't care that he cheated, since it was IMO known and condoned by the players, the union, and ownership. So I guess I'm kind of in the middle on this whole topic.

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This pretty much sums up my opinion, although I never even got to see Willie Mays play, so all I have to look at is a pretty stat sheet.

As far as those knowledgeable and complicit in the whole PED mess, whenever I see Selig getting all sanctimonious about the issue, it is pretty disgusting.
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  #15  
Old 11-03-2007, 03:15 AM
RedBean RedBean is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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As far as those knowledgeable and complicit in the whole PED mess, whenever I see Selig getting all sanctimonious about the issue, it is pretty disgusting.

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To be fair to Selig, in addition to the league being made aware of steroid problems in an official and documented capacity as early as 1994, courtesy of the FBI, the league did try and do it's part as early as 1991 in attempting to get the current testing language into the CBA....but their attempts were balked at by the union, and they ultimately agreed not to include it.

But in reality, given the strength of the union and their refusal to cave on the issue....what would you expect the league to do? Lock the players out? Run to the media?

The league itself was in a no-win situation. The union, and ultimately it's members, are by far more to blame for the resistance to address the problem......which didn't get properly addressed until outside forces came to the league's aide and made an agreement by the union necessary versus the alternative.

And as far as all those players who were against steroids and wanted the league to do something....you certainly didn't hear them breaking the union line and speaking out about it at the time it was going on....it's those guys that disgust me more with the hypocrisy of feigned concern and indignation for the league, when they themselves were keeping their mouths shut at the time for their own benefit.

Granted, the league could have taken the hard line, but risking a strike or labor unrest over an issue that wasn't making headlines and wasn't important to the fans and media wasn't worth the trouble it would create in facing one of the most concentrated and powerful labor unions in the country.
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  #16  
Old 11-03-2007, 09:22 AM
manbearpig manbearpig is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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RedBean,

What percentage chance do you assign to a random player from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using a PED?

What percentage chance do you assign Barry Bonds from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using a PED?

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Still waiting....

I laid out all the parameters in the other thread.
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  #17  
Old 11-03-2007, 09:29 AM
manbearpig manbearpig is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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For the record, I think that Bonds is the Greatest of All Time, as well as a cheater, but I really don't care that he cheated, since it was IMO known and condoned by the players, the union, and ownership. So I guess I'm kind of in the middle on this whole topic.

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Pretty spot on with my thoughts. If he is not the GOAT he is pretty damn close. My personal opinion is that did use PED's and that was cheating, even if it was not explicitly against the rules. However, being as it was not explicitly against the rules I think any retroactive punishment is a stupid thing for baseball to do.

My argument against RB has always been about whether or not it is likely Bonds ever used PED's, with a slight tangent on whether using them was cheating before there was a policy.
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  #18  
Old 11-03-2007, 09:34 AM
manbearpig manbearpig is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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You label Paul a racist, but defend Bonds.


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You're presence in this thread is becoming all the more clear.

Question: Are you really here to discuss Bonds, or is it that you just have some unrelated and unresolved issues with *me*?

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This is from the other thread but I wanted to make a quick mention of it here.

My argument about Bonds has nothing to do with the RP thread. The reason I brought it up was to show you the difference in how you interpreted similar evidence. In one case you say we have incomplete info and should wait to make a decision. In the other you take the same type of disputable evidence and are 100% sure of the outcome.

That was my issue. Nothing personal at all.
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  #19  
Old 11-03-2007, 09:56 AM
ClarkNasty ClarkNasty is offline
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Default Re: Bonds Responds

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This is from the other thread but I wanted to make a quick mention of it here.



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Thanks for helping to keep it all in one spot here.
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  #20  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:15 AM
BigSoonerFan BigSoonerFan is offline
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Default Re: Official argue about all things Barry Bonds GOAT thread

Congratulations on getting your own thread.

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Couldn't have said it better myself, Big Daddy.

He wanted to play ball, and spend time with his friends and family.

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So do you think his relationship with his teammates and others (not just the media) was good or bad compared to others?

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He didn't want to be anyone's role model, it's not his job to raise your kids, nor did he want to peddle you soft drinks and tennis shoes by being someone's corporate logo house negro, and he didn't feel the need to kiss anybody's ass to earn his keep.

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Well, he should feel the need to give back to the game and to the fans that pay him for playing this game.

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He did that with his bat, and he did it on the field.


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And he did it well, I'll give you that.

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VIVA LA BONDS!
LONG LIVE THE HR KING!


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Yes, do it out of the spotlight and go away (Bonds), since you just want to be with your family anyway.
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