WPT Five Diamond - Trips w/ A Kicker, Monochrome Flop vs. Shaniac

[Todd Terry]

[ QUOTE ]
it wasn't a reverse tell. he checked his cards to make sure he really had what he thought so he didn't do something moronic. i do this every single hand. seriously that's what i'm talking about. making a dumb turn c/r that doesn't make any sense for any reason involving a live tell is moronic. that is it. c/c turn and prob c/f riv unimproved, depending on the size of the bet.

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So we've gone from "pure spew", because this would not be a live tell against you and therefore should not be used against anybody, to "moronic", because I did something relying on a live tell. I'm guessing "live tells are not important" is a corollary to the Third Fundamental Theorem of Poker, "internet players are the best tournament players in the world".

[fslexcduck]

no, you made a play that doesn't make any sense, and that's what was bad. even if you were to assume that your awesome live read were 100% accurate, this STILL isn't the way to play the hand because he still folds everything on the turn.

you seem like one of those awesome guys who's been playing live for hundreds of years and hates all these young internet pros coming in and mucking things up. how's my read, eh?

[shaniac]

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you seem like one of those awesome guys who's been playing live for hundreds of years and hates all these young internet pros coming in and mucking things up. how's my read, eh?

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don't think that read is correct, but I don't mean to get in the middle of this, either.

[LuckyLloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it wasn't a reverse tell. he checked his cards to make sure he really had what he thought so he didn't do something moronic. i do this every single hand. seriously that's what i'm talking about. making a dumb turn c/r that doesn't make any sense for any reason involving a live tell is moronic. that is it. c/c turn and prob c/f riv unimproved, depending on the size of the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So we've gone from "pure spew", because this would not be a live tell against you and therefore should not be used against anybody, to "moronic", because I did something relying on a live tell. I'm guessing "live tells are not important" is a corollary to the Third Fundamental Theorem of Poker, "internet players are the best tournament players in the world".

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, lets not go down this road please. I am a live player and I have learned through bitter experience that live "tells" are highly unreliable. Knowing that someone has done something out of the ordinary is easy. Knowing what it means is a complex guessing game and the times your assessment of what it indicates is right are vastly outnumbered by the times you get it wrong. And you tend to remember the times you were correct much more than the times you end up looking like a tit.

Why post a hand if it comes down to a specific live read? If you follow that read to the end and are happy that it was the correct thing to do - fine. But people are going to go to the fundamentals of hand reading, ranges, betting etc in order to analyse a hand posted on a message board.

That analysis says that checkraising a thinking player on this type of board is a spew. And live, online, whatever - that type of analysis will ALWAYS be more useful and beneficial than inconclusive, "had to be there" stuff like reads.

[NYWalker]

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because he still folds everything on the turn.


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Turn c/r is questionable but not completely spew.(especially if "villain folds everything on the turn"). I'm not sure it's reverse-telling or something else to justify the turn call and river shove? (rather than turn shove from the nut flush)

Just out of curiosity, if the river was an Ace, what's our discusion about this hand?




[ QUOTE ]

you seem like one of those awesome guys who's been playing live for hundreds of years and hates all these young internet pros coming in and mucking things up. how's my read, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please feel free to criticize the hand not the person. I don't see Todd put in a single word implies "he hates anyone" in his post. Yes, he expressed some anger when replying to your post, but that's so polite comparing to some "great posters"'s "you suck" posts...

As how this hand is played out, IMO, OP's live tell combined with villain's river shove (instead of turn) plays important role in making the decision. I don't 100% rely on live physical tells as there are many other factors. However, live tell is very useful and plays important role for me.

Edit: I respect Shane as a good poker player and respectable person in live. But I have question about how he played this hand at the turn/river.

[Todd Terry]

LuckyLloyd:


I posted the hand because it involved questions of interpretation of a live read, combined with the hand going down in a weird play which led to an issue of whether to abandon the initial live read. It also was a rather tough hand to read, since Shane played the hand in a non-conventional way. It also was similar to a hand which had just been posted, but involved a few key differences.

You think live tells are useless, I don't agree in general, although obviously this is a hand where a live read led me down the path to dumping my stack in a $15K buy-in tournament. And believe me, I remember hands where relying on live tells cost me hands much more than the reverse.


My New Friend from Yale:


I learned to play MTTs by playing on the net, I've been playing live for a little more than 2 years, including the last 7 months full-time. There's really no need to use insults or nasty adjectives to get your point across. Assuming you had a superuser account which showed you that Shane had a 9 with a big heart when he bet the turn, what would you recommend doing?

[registrar]

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It also was a rather tough hand to read, since Shane played the hand in a non-conventional way.

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It's how I'd play it. He's not folding to a raise on the turn and you're not checking a boat on the the river.

[Todd Terry]

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It also was a rather tough hand to read, since Shane played the hand in a non-conventional way.

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It's how I'd play it. He's not folding to a raise on the turn and you're not checking a boat on the the river.

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Agreed, and agreed, but that doesn't answer the question of call vs. raise the turn. Having thought about it, IMO how he played it was probably the best way to play it, but I think 90% of players jam the turn.

Edit: Meaning it doesn't answer the question of whether Shane should call or raise the turn after I C/R, in case that was unclear.

[EC10]

the turn c/r is really bad

[fslexcduck]

[ QUOTE ]

My New Friend from Yale:


I learned to play MTTs by playing on the net, I've been playing live for a little more than 2 years, including the last 7 months full-time. There's really no need to use insults or nasty adjectives to get your point across. Assuming you had a superuser account which showed you that Shane had a 9 with a big heart when he bet the turn, what would you recommend doing?

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don't believe i used any insults or nasty adjectives, in fact. i just thought you misinterpreted my point which was that no live read in this case could justify the turn action because it still isn't any good. that's all there is to it. you seemed to think i was saying that live tells in general are useless, and i disagree with that statement completely.

and if you had a superuser account that showed that shane bet this turn with a 9 with a big heart, then you should check raise and probably a bit smaller since you want him to call with 11 outs as you'll be able to play the river perfectly. but if your live reads are even close to as powerful as a superuser account, i'd have to assume your IQ is significantly lower than 30 if you're not at every live event big buy-in final table there is. and assuming this isn't the case, all i'm saying is no live read here could be strong enough to make this turn action any good.