IRS Withholding on US Tournament Winnings Starts in 2008 - Page 4

jogsxyz · #31 09-02-2007, 04:08 PM

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Part of that is establishing that poker is a game of skill, not luck. I think we have a need to be here getting poker seen as skillful by the IRS. If we win this argument, we'll be far better off.

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That argument can't be won. No amount of proof will be
acceptable to the IRS.

jogsxyz · #32 09-02-2007, 04:13 PM

Time for casinos to change the payoff schedule for tournaments
with prize pools under $50K. 1st place is $5K. 2nd to 9th
will win much more money. No need for deals on the final
table.

TheEngineer · #33 09-02-2007, 04:44 PM

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Part of that is establishing that poker is a game of skill, not luck. I think we have a need to be here getting poker seen as skillful by the IRS. If we win this argument, we'll be far better off.

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That argument can't be won. No amount of proof will be
acceptable to the IRS.

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Okay. Let's just give up now.

Seriously, this is a new ruling, and we need to fight back on it. We don't "know" how the IRS will rule until we try, really.

jogsxyz · #34 09-02-2007, 05:00 PM

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Part of that is establishing that poker is a game of skill, not luck. I think we have a need to be here getting poker seen as skillful by the IRS. If we win this argument, we'll be far better off.

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That argument can't be won. No amount of proof will be
acceptable to the IRS.

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Okay. Let's just give up now.

Seriously, this is a new ruling, and we need to fight back on it. We don't "know" how the IRS will rule until we try, really.

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If you prove to the IRS that there is skill in poker,
you're going to make a lot of club prop players very
unhappy.
Many years ago the IRS had a group of agents playing
poker to determine how to tax club prop players. All
the agents lost. The IRS concluded that poker was
unbeatable. Saved prop players tons of money and
headaches with paperwork.

DeadMoneyDad · #35 09-02-2007, 05:11 PM

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Part of that is establishing that poker is a game of skill, not luck. I think we have a need to be here getting poker seen as skillful by the IRS. If we win this argument, we'll be far better off.

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That argument can't be won. No amount of proof will be
acceptable to the IRS.

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I think you miss the legal distinctions involved. It is not an arguement that poker is all skill and no luck. The skills game arguement is that there is a significant amount of skill involved and the outcome does not depend only on luck.

The reason for the PPA's involvement in this issue is the reg cites rules established for wagering pools and lotteries in adittion to the ones concerning gambling in general.

This does need to be challenged. IMO it will not required a very expensive effort. But IMO the end result will be the same, with-holdings from trouney wins.

Yes it is a technical legal arguement, and one that can be won, but it is not one that will cause the whole reg to fail. All it will take is for the IRS to modify the reg to cite the appropiate law (if such laws exist). Given the background of law on gambling winnings, and the existing laws and negociations with the casinos on table games reporting I assume such laws and regulatory background exists. I'm not a lawyer so I can't speak to this issue with complete confidence.

But in the end do not expect this rule to go away, nor should you critize the PPA when and if they win their legal distinction but with-holding become a reality.

Creating too big a buzz about this issue and anouncing that you might fight it tooth and nail, is part of the PR nighmare I've refered to in past posts.

D$D

DavidNB · #36 09-02-2007, 06:13 PM

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I don't play MTTs myself, so I'm not sure how many players would make this. However, I see the following issue occuring in Vegas:

Pay $2,500 for tournament. Win 10K. Get 7,500. Now you're unable to play the main event.

Do you really think that you're gonna get that money back from the IRS after they have it?

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Yes you would get it back at the end of the year, its a credit on taxes payable. It would all even out in the end.

TomVeil · #37 09-02-2007, 06:18 PM

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Yes you would get it back at the end of the year, its a credit on taxes payable. It would all even out in the end.

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I sure hope you're right [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TheEngineer · #38 09-02-2007, 06:21 PM

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Yes you would get it back at the end of the year, its a credit on taxes payable. It would all even out in the end.

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I sure hope you're right [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Getting a refund on excess taxes is standard. Tax returns file the same whether taxes are owed or due to be refunded. The only difference is the underwithholding penalty. Still, we should not be treated like a lottery pool.

Coy_Roy · #39 09-02-2007, 06:48 PM

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the first thing it needs to accomplish is the legalization of online poker. Nothing is more important, and anything else is just a distraction.

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That's your opinion, I strongly disagree.

disjunction · #40 09-02-2007, 07:43 PM

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The PPA needs to pick its fights carefully. If they spread themselves out on too many issues, they won't be effective. And if the PPA is to survive (so that it can fight these kinds of tax issues), the first thing it needs to accomplish is the legalization of online poker. Nothing is more important, and anything else is just a distraction.

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Part of that is establishing that poker is a game of skill, not luck. I think we have a need to be here getting poker seen as skillful by the IRS. If we win this argument, we'll be far better off.

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This is actually a great issue to talk about. The examples that come up illustrate the fact that some poker players win.