NLTRN: TT OOP, flop line?

[Somekid]

My opponent here has been very annoying to play against. He open-limps a lot, and he often flat-calls with both air and decent hands (in the hand for example, he would definitely call with a jack). Also in past situations where I've bet the flop and he's called, I've checked the turn and he's bet, so I don't think I'm going to get to see a showdown by just betting the flop. This made it extremely difficult to play decent hands OOP position when my stack was small:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (2 handed)

Hero (t930)
Button (t2070)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Button calls t25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, Button calls t150.

Flop: (t400) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t730 (All-In)</font>

I really have no idea what to do with this flop, if I bet, he's probably going to call and I have no idea where I stand. Also, if i bet the flop and he calls, he's probably not going to give me a cheap showdown. He'll throw in a decent sized bet on the turn or river.

I wasn't sure about my checking options since he could very well check behind and get a free card, which probably hurts me.

So I decided to push, hoping that I could get him to fold some sort of Jx hand if he has it, and also to win the hand right away. I doubted he had anything great, but based on previous play I was pretty sure there's no way he's folding a queen here.

[HokieGreg]

Given stack sizes and your hands vulnerability, I would suggest increasing your oop preflop raise 1 or 2 more bb's against someone that limp-calls really light.

If you make it 250-300 and he calls, at least you are committed to shove the flop no matter what basically and you won't be faced with such a tough decision.

[jay_shark]

Shoving is definitely positive EV .

If you can't get away from your flop bet if called or pushed all in then you're better off shoving . If you can get away from your flop bet if called or pushed all in , then you're better off betting about three quarters of the pot .

[mjws00]

Don't the Jack and Queen hit his limp/call range squarely in the face? I'd shove a LOT of flops after a solid raise oop, but this one sucks. I don't think you're folding a jack out and any queen calls. I don't think you have much more FE with a shove than any other bet in this spot. We're never folding out a better hand here as played. Feels like we are WAY BEHIND.

If he'll let us block it cheaply I donk into him and hope to avoid him coming overtop with air on a turn. A lot of these guys that like to limp call are happy to call on later streets as long as you bet. I'd probably attack your weak blocker here with as little as a flush draw given these stacks. In fact I probably bet 1/2 pot or better every single time in position as such a large portion of your range involves a mid pair, and you shove AQ AJ etc if you hit.

Your shove is definately a strong move, but I'm not sure it doesn't force our opponent to play perfectly against us. I think I'd just curse a little and shutdown on this board. Anything but a very small (probably inneffective) blocker commits and cripples us. Might as well have shoved it pf we're short anyway and will likely have to gamble to double up. Especially as it sounds like this guy is beating you on later streets.

Mike

[HokieGreg]

again, increase pfr 1 or 2 bb's and your flop decision is infinitely less difficult

[mjws00]

So hokie. If you pop this to 300 pf. Would you shove this? Flops don't get much worse for our hand. And if you are committed to shoving any way and can't get away... why not just stick it in?

Mike

[Somekid]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! I'm glad to see that my shove was at least +EV.

Raising more PF in this spot is an interesting idea and one I've been thinking about a lot lately, considering how many open limpers I play against at my current level ($6 turbos). It seems like a weird stop and go. Instead of pushing my medium strength pocket pairs PF when OOP and smallish stacked, and just winning the blinds (which isn't that great at low blind levels), I can raise somewhat big (like 6x BB) and then push (almost) any flop. This seems to get a lot of value against opponents who will call with Ax or KJ type hands vs. big PF 3-bets.

[mjws00]

I think the push _almost_ any flop is key. Definately gets value against Ax, KJ, KQ, QJ, JT, 99- type hands on a normal board.

But what kind of range is necessary to make the shove on this board +EV. With a reasonable oop raising range villian shouldn't be calling me light here as I am almost certain to shove it in.

Wide range we are even:
Hand 0: 49.660%{ 22+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A7o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 50.340% { ThTs }

Against ANY PAIR ANY Broadway we are 40/60 dogs.
Hand 0: 59.029% { 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 40.971% { ThTs }

If I'm villian I am far more likely to have the second set of hands if I am in the lead. Especially if I know you understand position.

Mike

[Somekid]

Are you talking about ranges for the hand as played or for the situation in which our opponent calls after we raise PF to like 300?

[mjws00]

I think Hokie is dead on with raising bigger. But villians range doesn't tighten that much (maybe a tiny bit). Assuming we have been reasonably tight oop. Our decision just becomes easier because we have very few flops (if any) we can get away from. It is simple push/fold.

The raise is correct because we typically will have a huge chunk of fold equity. I'd be interested to see the math on just how badly we'd need to be behind to correctly get away at that point.

Mike