A few 600NL hands

mustmuck · #1 09-19-2006, 01:36 PM

Haven't been playing terribly well for the past while, so thought I'd try posting some hands. Any comments greatly appreciated.

All these hands happened to occur on the same table, but are against different opponents. I guess you'd call me a TAG. I'd estimate I was playing something along the lines of 18/14.

Hand 1)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($488)
SB ($600)
BB ($463.50)
UTG ($622.34)
Hero ($606)
CO ($916.64)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Hero raises to $21, CO raises to $55, 3 folds, Hero calls $34.

Flop: ($119) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($119) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $99, CO calls $99.

River: ($317) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $290.

Villain in this hand is an unknown, seems to be a little loose preflop and I haven't seen him 3-bet before.

I always figure a slow play when this kind of player checks behind on a flop like this one. When he calls the turn I really don't know where I stand. Does my river bet get called my a worse hand here often enough? My gut tells me he is strong, but my cards tell me I have a set ... ?

Hand 2)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($600)
UTG ($1328.79)
MP ($728)
Button ($796.79)
Hero ($760.22)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $3.
3 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $17, BB calls $14.

Flop: ($40) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $30, BB calls $30.

Turn: ($100) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $75, BB calls $75.

River: ($250) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $75.

Villain is a (probably) winning TAG. My flop bet is standard. I'm unsure of my turn bet, it's probably too weak. On the river I have no reason to believe he has an ace, so I made what was supposed to look like a milking bet.

Hand 3)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($684.50)
Button ($1074.94)
SB ($1099.60)
BB ($1004.09)
Hero ($846.22)
MP ($212.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
Hero raises to $21, 4 folds, BB calls $15.

Flop: ($45) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $36, BB raises to $72, Hero calls $36.

Turn: ($189) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $125, Hero calls $125.

River: ($439) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $125, BB raises to $325.

Villain in this hand is another unknown, who seems loose passive preflop, but can bet after the flop. I haven't noticed him min-raise before. Checking the Ad on the river just doesn't seem standard for this type of player? I feel that I pay off these river check-raises too often.

I'm particulary interested in the river action of all these hands, but comments on all streets are welcome.

Phresh · #2 09-19-2006, 01:41 PM

I bet a bit less in Hand 1 as I find it more likely he either has a weak made hand or the flush. I'd probably bet $200 and hope for a call, but fold to a raise.

I probably check-fold the turn in Hand 2 and definitely don't bet $75. If I have an Ace in that spot, I'm definitely betting $175 at least, so I'm never doing that fake post-oak midget bet.

I'm 3-betting this flop very often. I'm folding to the river check-raise for sure, though. I can easily see him having Ax[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

mindless · #3 09-19-2006, 01:53 PM

First hand is weird. Slowplaying seems like such a bad idea given the drawiness of the board...any Q, J, or heart could kill his action if you're a bit loose preflop. If he knows that you're tight, then maybe he'll slowplay a set of aces here, but it's such an action flop that I have a tough time believing that he'd do that. Thus, I'm betting the turn (as you did) and betting the river, too. If he raises, I puke and call, hoping to see AK at least 1/4 the time that's required.

Second hand I'm worried that he's drawing to the nut flush and has the hand you're representing. Also, if you're going to make a "milking" bet, make it something that twopair will fold to. It's quibbling, but I'd bet 100 or 125 instead. However, your biggest mistake is the turn bet...I hate it completely. I think that's the worst part of all three hands.

Last hand is a tough one. I'd threebet the flop, but probably fold to a push. Turn call is good. River bet is strangely sized...I'd bet a bit more, like 200 at least...I think that milkbets generally aren't the most bayesianly profitable, but I assume that unknows aren't tricky enough to checkraise/bluff this river, so I fold.

Lastly, if you're running into a rough patch, it's not because of these hands. None of these plays are that bad, save for betting the turn in hand 2. There are other issues...

mustmuck · #4 09-19-2006, 06:38 PM

Thanks for the replies.

I agree that these hands were played a little strangely, but that's kind of why I posted them.

I think my biggest problem with hand 1 is that it's hard to put him on a hand that will even call a river bet that I beat. Obviously this is a terrible board to slowplay on, but I find that unknowns frequently slowplay on boards that are terrible for slowplaying. All the same, I think I have to bet, but I like the $200 suggestion instead of $290.

Nobody seems to like the turn bet on the second hand, and it's not hard to see why. I should point out that my "standard" line is to c/f this turn, but I do think that I can't do that every time. From villains point of view, at the time the turn card hits I can still have any two cards that I happened to raise preflop ( I'm probably c-betting the flop in this spot over 90% of the time ). There's a pretty good chance that he can't beat a king here ... am I fooling myself if I think he'll fold a J? The board is top heavy, but this has to scare him as much as me. That said, I do think I need to bet more if I'm going to bet at all.

Clearly I need to bet the river to have any chance of winning. How many of you are folding non-ace hands here for 75, 100 or 125? 75 probably is too little, but I've been experimenting with smaller river value bets lately (not against this guy in particlar), so it'd have to follow with smaller bluffs too? I'm unsure how many 600NL opponents would notice a pattern like this.

3-betting the flop in hand 3 is probably a good idea. I probably don't 3-bet flops for value nearly enough. On the river I got myself into a bit of a quandary. I didn't think he was tricky enough to check the Ad on the river, but that also meant I didn't think he was tricky enough to c/r bluff the river either. On the other hand, I thought that he may have picked up weakness in my river bet. I'm looking for a value that won't encourage him to bluff, but could be called by Q/Jd ?

howzit · #5 09-19-2006, 06:55 PM

hand 1, if you think this guy is strong and he'll bet a weaker hand check it to him. if he'll check behind aces up bet something that's easier for him to call.

in hand 2, that river bet is so weak. standard line is to check fold but your hand could be any big ace.

hand 3, good pot control. if you're not gonna call that raise, don't bet that river. your bet is so weak, and it got him to bluff so now it's time to pick it off. be glad you didn't bet $250 and get min-raised.