Flop blind defense spot

[mjkidd]

Let's say you're facing a button raise with A9o and elect to call in the BB. The flop comes T74r. Does anyone checkraise this spot? If so, what sort of villain do you CR here?

[counterspell]

it would be okay vs. a villain with a huge stealing range who bluffs optimally on the turn (you want to c/c c/c a habitual bluffer and c/c c/f a one-barreler), but against him you should have 3bet preflop.

so basically never.

[lippy]

Well this is a very standard 3-bet preflop, so you shouldn't really have a decision like this.

[SteveL91]

[ QUOTE ]
Well this is a very standard 3-bet preflop, so you shouldn't really have a decision like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is and I don't think it should be. If you're regularly 3betting this hand from the BB against a button opener, you're going to get tortured by anyone competent. You're either going to be in far more capped pots, or flat-out abused post-flop when you completely miss and his hand range hasn't been defined in any appreciable way because he just called PF. Either way, you're left in a decent sized to big pot, where you're going to end up making more mistakes than the other guy.

If it shows a profit for you, then maybe it works for you and you've found a way to make it profitable. But, I think you're going to find it's a crappy spot more often than not.

To address the OP: I used to be of the mindset that a c/r here was rather pointless, since you're at least getting called down by better hands while folding out worse hands. However, I'm starting to think there's more value in getting people to fold their 6+ out hands that they would play differently if they knew your holding.

Basically, if it's someone who plays honestly and you have control over, I don't see a problem with a more aggressive line; against someone who just won't let you get off that easily, I think my default would be to c/c if I wanted to showdown UI. But, this is a spot that I'm still debating myself.

[lippy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well this is a very standard 3-bet preflop, so you shouldn't really have a decision like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is and I don't think it should be. If you're regularly 3betting this hand from the BB against a button opener, you're going to get tortured by anyone competent. You're either going to be in far more capped pots, or flat-out abused post-flop when you completely miss and his hand range hasn't been defined in any appreciable way because he just called PF. Either way, you're left in a decent sized to big pot, where you're going to end up making more mistakes than the other guy.

If it shows a profit for you, then maybe it works for you and you've found a way to make it profitable. But, I think you're going to find it's a crappy spot more often than not.

To address the OP: I used to be of the mindset that a c/r here was rather pointless, since you're at least getting called down by better hands while folding out worse hands. However, I'm starting to think there's more value in getting people to fold their 6+ out hands that they would play differently if they knew your holding.

Basically, if it's someone who plays honestly and you have control over, I don't see a problem with a more aggressive line; against someone who just won't let you get off that easily, I think my default would be to c/c if I wanted to showdown UI. But, this is a spot that I'm still debating myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's like you think I would only raise A9o from the BB. Yeah, I raise Aces as well...

Stox on this type of situation, "when defending from the big blind, you should often three-bet hands that figure to be best. Alternately, you can call and check raise a lot of flops with hands that benefit from getting folds, specifically smaller pairs and ace-high hands."

[mjkidd]

[ QUOTE ]
Well this is a very standard 3-bet preflop, so you shouldn't really have a decision like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

A8o-A9o are the worst aces I would consider 3betting in this spot in the games I've been playing in with a 1-3 blind structure. And for someone who is autobetting the flop when I check, what's the difference between CR the flop and 3betting and leading the flop?

[Oink]

Whether to 3-bet preflop depends on so many things. Saying its good or bad without any info is silly.

You want to 3-bet more if his range is wide

You want to call more if he isnt SD bound. This way we get more action when we c/r Axx flop since a flop c/r represent less strength than a PF 3-ball. We can also still take the pot or get value on a 622 flop by c/r'ing

In my games its a standard 3-bet preflop but thats cuz everybody 3-bets about the same hands they open raise with in the HJ.

EDIT: A balance thing: If you want to 3-bet good Kx to represent the A on Axx flops you need to 3-bet a lot of Ax preflop as well.

[gehrig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well this is a very standard 3-bet preflop, so you shouldn't really have a decision like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

A8o-A9o are the worst aces I would consider 3betting in this spot in the games I've been playing in with a 1-3 blind structure. And for someone who is autobetting the flop when I check, what's the difference between CR the flop and 3betting and leading the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
its a pretty substantial difference

cring flop represents an entirely different range and doesnt give villain a chance to cap preflop

[gehrig]

cring flop here is generally a pretty poor play

positives:
villain can have a worse hand that he doesn't rebluff and won't put much money in with if u cc. if he has qj cring is mildly better

villain is more likely to fold a better hand on turn/river. a huge positive when it happens but u basically need a 1) a thinking villain who is 2) holding what is a relatively small part of his range and 3) the board needs to come bad for him

negatives:
villain can have a better hand hes not folding in which case cring is terrible

villain can have a worse hand and rebluff in which case cring is terrible

in genearl, a9o is about the last hand u want to reopening the betting with

[mjkidd]

gehrig,

Do you think that CR A9o on a board like 773 is also a poor play?