Betting flop and turn w/ draw in 3-bet pot as standard?

Laetus · #1 10-12-2007, 08:44 PM

I play TAG and no reads on villain, b/c I haven't played w/ him for long. Could this be standard or is a C/F on turn better? Maybe a CRAI on flop could be fine as well. But if we bet flop is it fine to felt it on turn? B/c we should have some FE and it gives us a image of a reckless gambler?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

HERO ($192)
UTG ($525.60)
MP ($214)
CO ($136.90)
Button ($306.80)
SB ($38)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button raises to $7, 1 fold, HERO raises to $25, Button calls $18.

Flop: ($51) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
HERO bets $42, Button calls $42.

Turn: ($135) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
HERO bets $125 (All-In)

Laetus · #2 10-13-2007, 05:51 AM

No one? I think it's kinda important how to plays draws on turn when you missed in a 3-bet pot.

Unknown Soldier · #3 10-13-2007, 06:28 AM

crai is pretty bad on this flop. I usually think it's q. bad in rr pots anyway w/ no history. As played, i have a feeling it's -EV on this board with your hand. Could be wrong. Do an EV calculation. Give him a calling range of AK/KQ/QQ/AA, a few combos of AQ and maybe 1 or 2 combos of JJ/TT. Sound about right?

Laetus · #4 10-13-2007, 06:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
crai is pretty bad on this flop. I usually think it's q. bad in rr pots anyway w/ no history. As played, i have a feeling it's -EV on this board with your hand. Could be wrong. Do an EV calculation. Give him a calling range of AK/KQ/QQ/AA, a few combos of AQ and maybe 1 or 2 combos of JJ/TT. Sound about right?

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason I mentioned CRAI on flop was that I saw Brian do this in a CR video a while ago in a similar spot (or at least I think so [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

The thing is that it could be -EV in a vacuum, but if we plays our draws really fast we will be able to VB more light in the future. But I dunno if people are observant enough at nl200 to make this a good play.

IrishPete · #5 10-13-2007, 06:38 AM

i dont like preflop without reads. wen 3betting out of the blinds with 2 cards you need to have at least some information on the villain like his vpip/pfr or some idea of how he's playing. 3betting in this spot is just pushing the bet button and hoping.

Unknown Soldier · #6 10-13-2007, 06:41 AM

nah balancing is not a concern here, should be of minor importance.

well im > aba so listen to me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] seriously though can you remember the situation? i'd be interested to know what happened. I have a feeling there will be a subtle difference whether it's board texture or opponent dependent. If not then i guess crai is good here, but i have no idea why.

Laetus · #7 10-13-2007, 06:41 AM

I don't agree. I think it's profitable against an average villain to 3-bet pre and lead out on most flops itself.

Hamburglar · #8 10-13-2007, 06:44 AM

you're so screwed.

Laetus · #9 10-13-2007, 06:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
nah balancing is not a concern here, should be of minor importance.

well im > aba so listen to me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] seriously though can you remember the situation? i'd be interested to know what happened. I have a feeling there will be a subtle difference whether it's board texture or opponent dependent. If not then i guess crai is good here, but i have no idea why.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya, maybe balancing isn't that important. Say this were nl400/nl600 would you like this play then?

The thing is that is was a while ago I watched the video, but I'm sure he planed a CRAI w/ a draw in a 3-bet pot and I think it was a str8d similar to mine. The argument as I could give you is that if you are going to bet/call on flop you could as well CRAI and hopefully get some FE and villain could as well check behind and let you draw for free.

Hamburglar · #10 10-13-2007, 06:49 AM

occasionally i do this (even with gutshot holding an ace) but only when villains are owning me on the flop, never to an unknown. i would give up on turn here.