another low type hand

cjs · #1 09-25-2007, 09:23 PM

I was more aggressive with this hand because there were fewer players.Is this a better way to play because of the possible scooper?

PokerStars 2/4 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

sfgiants · #2 09-25-2007, 10:54 PM

I'd fold pre-flop unless you feel very comfortable playing this marginal hand. On the flop I might bet out or I might fold. Turn is a fold unless I have a strong read.

Once again, I may well be wrong as I'm not very seasoned yet. I'll let others point out mistakes in my logic.

Buzz · #3 09-25-2007, 11:07 PM

CJS - I'd bet the flop and then I'd bet the turn. Everything is different if you bet the flop.

You'd like to turn your hand into a scooper, but you can't do that if you don't seize the initiative. you can't do that by check/calling your way through the hand and then check/raising on the river.

The way you played before the river, I think you should check/call the river too.

Double suited A4XY. It's not great but I'm playing it. I'm just not playing it the way you played it.

Buzz

Rush17 · #4 09-26-2007, 04:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The way you played before the river, I think you should check/call the river too.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

cjs: I know when a hand is HU, there does stand a much better chance that you won't need to have the nuts because you're only facing one opponent, but checkraising this board will never fold off your oppponent unless he was bluffing the entire way. And I can't see what other reason you would have for making this play as a checkraise here with your hand has just about no value; your high is weak and your low is not that good either. Thoughts as to why you chose this play?

cjs · #5 09-26-2007, 08:43 AM

At this level the preflop raise almost always means AA or A2. With the board containing an A and my having an A I thought the chances of him having both other aces decreases. I put him on a counterfited low and if I made a low I was trying to force him out with the checkraise. I thought it might promote my hand to a scooper if he only had a pair of aces.

I am more of a 6 max player so these type of hands I am much more comfortable with. I am rebuilding my roll at full ring only because the variance is lower and the 6 max variance just destroyed my roll recently.

RobNottsUk · #6 09-26-2007, 09:01 AM

On the flop, you're committing 5bb to win most likely 1/2 of 12, giving away 2.5bb, unless you get lucky or the button is "at it".

Though there's lots of backdoor stuff going on (J-hi Diamond flush, b'way, wheel, 7..3, 8..4 str8), I really wonder where the value is.

Out of position
Don't know where we are
Likely 2nd best hand + drawing to 2nd best hand

On plus side, we're heads up and on a good day we'll make the nuts Hi or the 2nd nuts Lo.

Seems like Reverse-Implied Odds spot to me.

If opponent is not weak-tight, I can't see any hope of not getting looked up, even if we put in a turn raise. If the raise was with something like KK23 then we want them bluffing the river rather than giving up.

If we'd open raised, and got called then may be we'd have a story line. As is, seems like playing back looks like a "Dark Tunnel" bluff as Harrington puts it.

Yes it's feeble but I suspect folding or check/call-ing is the least bad play.

Pre-flop fold or raise, though it's double suited is it really strong to call with?

RobNottsUk · #7 09-26-2007, 09:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At this level the preflop raise almost always means AA or A2. With the board containing an A and my having an A I thought the chances of him having both other aces decreases. I put him on a counterfited low and if I made a low I was trying to force him out with the checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's good thinking, but the problem is if the Lo's counterfeited then he's made A's up, and if it isn't he's had you out kicked on the flop, and likely got A's up on turn. Remember most of the cards are dealt out, and most players folded, so actually AAxx, your A45x and an A on the flop are more likely than you'ld expect.

I think you're only going to fold out a busted 'Lo' + pair hand, and you have that beat on the river anyway, so there's no value in raising.

cjs · #8 09-26-2007, 09:32 AM

Rob I'm with Buzz on the preflop raising - I do very little preflop raising at full ring. From early position I never rasie preflop. 6 max I'm much more aggressive preflop - I almost never open limp. I just find the hands play better in full ring without the preflop raise.

RobNottsUk · #9 09-26-2007, 09:51 AM

If the games tight, not raising in mid-pos looks weak and puts you at a positional disadvantage (unless it's an out and out maniac behind you). You'ld raise hoping to play against the blinds, buying the button and to gain info about calling hands.

The problem is on the flop, you don't know whether the blinds are checking to the raiser, so you'll be caught in the middle too often, and if you bet into the pfr, you won't gain any real info as a raise or a call is ambiguous.

In loose games, you raise for value, rather than isolation. If players play poorly on the flop (most do), then keeping the pot small, makes their mindless loose calls worse, and you gain info by having it check-ed round to you (they're more likely to bet a hand).

cjs · #10 09-26-2007, 08:35 PM

results:

PokerStars 2/4 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results
Hero has Ac 4c Jd 5d (Low: 7, 5, 4, 3, A | High: one pair, aces).
Button has 5s 4d 3s 4s (Low: 7, 5, 4, 3, A | High: one pair, fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.25 BB. Button wins 2.75 BB. 

This hand surprised me because the button was on a straight steal. Maybe Rob you are correct the limp in MP was viewed as weak and he tried to run over me. I am surprised he called the checkraise on the river but maybe he thought he had enough for low. The quartering of him was a pleasant surprise considering I thought it was split with him winning the high.