Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can't Find a Way Out

[jesse8888]

I couldn't agree more. You played the turn/river like a maniac, and the guy played back at you as if you were a maniac who bets until raised and then often folds instantly. Is there a reason he has this "read" on you? Both of you played the turn in incredibly non-standard fashion.

When I get check-raised on the turn, and have only top pair, the question I ask is "Can I call down?" not "Should I three -bet this sucker?"

[Gap23Razor]

[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

here is the 2+2 way of handling the flaming about your turn play

you just post back..."oh i went check raise on the turn because i knew he would bet if i checked, but only call if i bet"

you see, lying is a big part of talking about poker as well as playing in...

[banzi]

So last night I head to the strip and it was actually a little better.

As an update I had to buy another copy of SSHE as I had my other copy STOLEN. Yes, the bad beats of ALL bad beats, my first copy was taken when I was reading it at Starbucks, left it there when I took off and came back to pick it up not 5 minutes later. Thank god the B&N up the road here had another copy.

Still, it made me re-read it again highlighting as I went and I think some of it is starting to sink it.

Played 2/4 as per usual and managed a 26bb win in a little over 4 hours.

Will type up the hands later.

[banzi]

Another small update. Excuse typos as I'm posting this from my crackberry.

Went to play yesterday afternoon and didn't pick up a hand in 3 hours. Won a single good pot with AA when I flopped a boat against trips and a draw. That one pot brought me back to losing 5bbs so called it quits.

Headed out last night and played some more 2/4. I have discovered my max session time limit seems to be around 3 hours. After that I tend to get bored so I'm making sure I stick to that limit.

Played and won 14bbs in 3 hours and then some. Had one interesting hand when I flopped a boat with 33 on a 773 board and was raised to the river whee the other player (an older guy who ended up in a fight with someone else at our table and they took it outside) angled me on the river to get me to check. Nice pot but he tried to chase me all night after than until he left. He had k7o btw.

Today I went out for about 2 hours and played 4/8 with a half kill instead. No hands again except for a single AQh that flopped an A and I got called down by j j to bring me back to losing 3 dollars. Quit and will keep everyone updated but would love to find a coach

[banzi]

Oh I also bought two more books; mike caros book of tells and beyond tells power poker psychology. Saw a few of the simple tells from caros book today and they helped me a lot.

[Leibniz]

[ QUOTE ]
my table image was getting better. I was showing down the winner or raising enough to make people think twice about calling with their offsuit rags.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to rethink that concept... Why would you want people to respect your game and fold incredibly -EV hands against your premium hands?

I think we all go through that stage in poker, at least I did. Where we think, "How can these people see me raise and turn over AA, KK, QQ, AKs over and over again, and them still call me with 96o and call me down with bottom pair to hit trips on the river? If only these people would respect my play then I'd be a winner..."

First of all, I learned to accept that fact, that most low limit players aren't paying attention to what hands you raise with pre-flop, all they are thinking about is their hands and praying they catch a lucky flop.

Second, you don't want these players to "respect" your game. By respect, you mean fold more often when YOU have the best of it. That is not the situation you want to create.Re-read pages 16-18 of SSHE until you take it to heart.

I can't remember where I read it, it may be somewhere in SSHE or another 2+2 book, or perhaps on this forum, but somewhere it was discussed how at low limit hold'em, trying to look tough (wrap around sun glasses, ipods, being too quiet) all make your opponents uncomfortable and thus tighten up against you. They are there to gamble and have fun and they don't want to feel like they are paying your mortgage for you. While that was referring to ones physical appearance and demeanor, I think it also applies to ones attitude at the table.

Try putting yourself in the shoes (and mind) of Joe the retiree, who comes to play poker because he is bored at home, or Jack the mechanic, who came to play poker, drink a few beers, and hit on that good looking cocktail waitress, Trixy. They come in and want to get their two cards, pay just about any price to see a flop with them, and then hope they take it down. Now, if Phil walks in and starts getting steamed that his big hands lose, starts talking about pot equity, variance, doing fancy chip tricks, wearing his wrap-around sun glasses, etc. etc. Then they get the feeling he isn't there to have fun, as they are, but he is there to make money and prove that he is a better poker player than them Nobody likes to realize they are the sheep being sheared. So, what do they do? They respect his game, they identify him as a good player and either recognize that he only plays the top 10 hands (so any rags they hit with will beat him because he is so easy to read) or they will stop playing against him.

So what did Phil gain? Everyone knows he's a good poker player. What did Phil lose? THE MONEY!

I'm not saying you are guilty of all the things Phil has done, but what I, Ed Miller, and dozens of people here want to point out is, you can either have their money or their respect, which one do you really want?

I think Daniel Negreanu sets an excellent example of demeanor at the table. Follow his example and do whatever you can so that the fish happily give you their money. You want to make them THINK they have a chance against you and never let on that they don't.

If you are looking for places to play, I can give you some recommendations. I lived in Las Vegas until last year, so my information shouldn't be too out of date.

As far as "locals" casinos go, don't automatically assume that it's going to be full of "rock" locals and that the games aren't good, because they are. Palace Station, the Cannery, Gold Coast are all good "locals" casinos that have some really good action games going. I'd say if you go in the morning and early afternoon, you are more likely to run into rocky retirees. Usually those games are best around 5 pm or after, when people get off work and come in, generally between 5 pm and 1 am are when these games are juicy. Also, you are likely to get better comps and chances to have your play rewarded with free roll tournaments at these places.

As far as the strip goes, I played at the Excalibur frequently. They have a 2-6 spread limit game, full of tourists that don't know poker from a hole in the wall. Just about anywhere on the strip is going to be like that. You aren't likely to find a table full of pros at a 2/4 game anywhere in Vegas.

Since the margins on these games are so tight, play where the rake is lowest. The rakes on the strip were generally higher than the locals casinos. Also, it gets to be a PITA to get down there, especially on weekends.

You may also want to try to start thinking on the next level. These players are thinking about their cards. And you are thinking about your cards and their cards. But start taking a moment to reflect on what you think THEY think you have.

Also, I'm not discouraging you from Caro's or any of the other books, but I find tells aren't particularly useful in limit hold'em, not physical tells at least. And I think that there are more fundamental aspects of your game that are far more important and profitable to address as compared to "reading the other man's soul" and picking up his tells. I say that because generally your decision is about one bet, rather than your whole stack.

Well, I didn't intend to ramble so much. I think the reason I was inspired to write as much as I have is because I very much see myself in your experience and attitude about the game. I also feel I have learned a lot more about poker and reflecting on my own actions from reading this thread.

Here's the trap I fall into. I get frustrated over something and ask someone for their opinion about it. They tell me their opinion and then I spend endless amounts of energy trying to justify my thoughts and actions and prove to them that I was right. Well, if I was right and I knew I was right, why am I asking? I think that is the trap you fell into initially. You were frustrated by your situation and while posing your question in a way that made it seem as if you were seeking advice, what you were really wanting was some consolation, which is a natural human reaction. Unfortunately, the people that replied (and I mean anyone that would reply) weren't as emotionally charged about the situation as you are, and thus gave a frank and honest appraisal of your play, which is what you said you were looking for.

Okay, that's enough. Good luck!

[banzi]

Thanks for the post. It gave me a lot to think about over the past few days. I actually posted a reply to it a while ago, but my Blackberry decided not to actually post the message, and I only just noticed that. I'll try to retype it from memory and add my own thoughts.

I played 2/4 for most of the week last week and didn't do much at all. Maybe won about 10bbs all week, and then decided to play in a 4/8 game on Thurs and the problems started. I cannot recall the hands right now except for one that I think I played really well:

Hero dealt A6c in the BB. UTG raises, *entire table calls*. For four bucks and since I close the betting, I call getting 17-1 on my $4.

Flop A 6 A two suited (think it was diamonds IIRC).

I bet out (remembering the old "What's the point of doing up-close magic for Stevie Wonder - he can't see it!" adage) - folded to MP1 who raises, folded to me (so it's HU) and I three bet, hoping he's on AK but wondering why he didn't play back pre-flop.

Turn is the 10d, I bet out, he flat calls.

River is the 6h. I bet out, he calls, shows me A4o for the tie.

So he was drawing dead - I think I played it well.

I Pokerstoved he hand and came up with my as an 88% winner going into the river, so I think I got about the maximum in there, unless a check and a smooth call on the flop could've let some flush draws in?

Anyway, that day at 4/8 ended up badly. I wound up down 15bbs at that limit, but I was down around 30. Pulled it back to that loss and called it quits for the day.

Roll on Saturday evening and after some great news for my family, I headed out to play some 2/4. I should preface this with the fact that I read the above post over and over, plus I had started to read the Poker psychology book. One thing I did notice is that when I acted in a manner consummate with "Daniel N"'s, I found it easier to play.

So, flush with the great news in my personal life (more when it's confirmed) I went to play 2/4 and had a blast, picking up a 30bbs win in a little over 4 hours.

The table was loose passive in the extreme, and I made some good decisions and had a few hands get there, but mostly I think my image as a happy, confident person that night did the most to help my game. I put the win/loss aside and concentrated on:

(a) Looking like I was having fun, but making sure I was paying attention
(b) Playing a few "heater" hands (i.e. stone cold bluffs) with small pots for fun to help my image
(c) Focused on making correct decisions regardless of win or loss and let the money take care of itself.

I think the post above, plus my reading helped a great deal. I also had a little fun with the table, but that's for another post.

I'm still reading all my books, and I think Caro's tell book is actually good at small limits. I've seen quite a few of the more common tells at my games (especially the Saturday game) and I picked up a few more "general" tells that have helped me value bet a few hands successfully, but that is something I have to work on. Value betting is not my strong point and I miss bets every now and then, fearing the worst hand (or worst case scenario) way too often.

[banzi]

Not posted for a while, but because of the good news I really haven't had the time to play. When I have played, I've been on a short time-frame and it's been interesting.

I played two low-buying NLHE tournaments. Didn't cash in one and came third in the other when I was forced to go all-in on A2o on the button (I would've been all-in for the BB next hand). I played a little 2/4 after and won a whole 2BBs in about three hours, so called it there.

Roll on to tonight. Head out and go down 30bbs right away with some sick beats (I had AA cracked twice in the first hour), but keep it friendly (even if the rest of the table, including some younger guys were trying their very best to be the biggest dicks in town) and took the beats well, and managed to come back and post a 15bb win.

I'm finding my reading is getting better, I am judging people a lot better and making some good laydowns and calls based on math rather than feel. If I take out the money and simply focus on making the right decisions (aided by drunk college kids who play their last $20 blind when I flop the nut flush lol) I do okay.

I will say this - the poker psychology book I bought has been a tremendous help to me in the way I handle the beats. Now I seem able to shrug them off, knowing that eventually, given time and the best hands I will get it back. I just have to keep playing correctly and I'll be okay. I also am very aware of how people see me - when I'm on a bad run I will tighten up against them, value-bet less and not bluff because they know I'm running bad. Of course when it started to turn around they paid me off. C'est la vie.

I wish I could've stayed. One drunk guy to my left had around $500 in $1 chips in front of him and a stack of Miller Light bottles behind him, and both stacks were slowly being eaten away by the table, but alas my family comes first.

There's always tomorrow.

I'd like to add that I have seen a few of the tells from both books at these low limits, mainly the "holding chips in my hand to stop you from betting" type tells (which also include any motion towards villan's chips when it's up to you to bet) that have helped me value-bet a few marginal hands and take them down.

I also have seen a few others, albeit very seldom - mainly the "quick glance at my chips - I have a great hand!" type tell after the flop.

I'm trying to push my thinking to the next level, but find it hard to displace my thoughts into someone else's shoes. I'll keep trying.

[BubbleMint]

Glad things seem to be getting better for you.

Good on you for coming back, I know you didnt have the easiest of times joining and posting, but thats all history now.

Not sure if you have, but reread SSHE now that you have read it and played some, I found that more concepts jumped out at me the 2nd time around.

[banzi]

Thanks for the post. I think I'm on my forth read of SSHE now, plus I've gone through two highlighters as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm re-reading all my books on almost a weekly-basis when I can (I have this habit of reading before I sleep every night, so have a lot of time to do it) and it's helping a lot.

I want to take my thinking process to the next level, so I will have to do some research about that and see where it leads me.