Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can't Find a Way Out

[banzi]

Well, last night did not go well.

A few example hands.

Me in the BB. One caller in 2nd position who was playing anything. Folded around to me and I raise with AhKh. He calls quickly, but no reraise.

Flop AT2 rainbow. I bet out, he raises, I reraise, he calls.

Turn T

I have that sinking feeling [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I check, he bets, I call.

River 7.

I check call again. He shows me QTo.

Hand 2:

I am on the button with AQd. Two callers before me. I raise, SB and BB fold. Two callers both call the raise.

Flop Kd9d7h

Checked to me, so I bet the flush draw and to see if anyone has a king. Both call.

Turn 3d.

Checked to me, I bet, 1st pos folds, 2nd pos raises, I reraise, he calls.

River 3h.

I just know what's coming. He bets, I flat call. He shows me 93o.

One hand I did win:

Me in UTG with AdAh. I raise, 3rd position reraises, button calls two cold, I reraise, 3rd pos calls, button crying calls saying "I need help" or something to that effect.

Flop Th7h2s

I bet out, two callers.

Turn 6h.

Sinking feeling. I check. 3rd pos checks. Button bets. I call hoping for a h. 3rd pos calls.

River 9h

Now I don't know what to do. Button must have two suited or an underpair, but did he call with 88h? I bet out, get called. I show the Ah flush, 3rd pos has JsJh, button mucks without showing.

[BubbleMint]

Hand 1, I bet the turn and call down to aggression.

Hand 2, you played perfect.

Hand 3, bet the turn, you still likely have the best hand and if not you have many redraws.

I am sure many others had a similar experience to mine, but when I started playing after reading SSHE, my variance rose. Being more aggressive wins more in the longer term, but short term my variance went throught the roof compared to my old passive style.

[Frond]

Banzi how is going lately? Keep us updated on some hands etc.

[banzi]

Played a little today at a local casino. Won't be going back there in a hurry - way too many locals who were extremely rude.

Anyway, two hands:

KdQd on button. Two late position callers. I raise to 4, both blinds and two callers come in.

Flop K75 rainbow.

Checked to me. I bet, one caller.

Turn J of the fourth suit.

Checked to me. I bet, he raises. I reraise. He calls.

River Ad

He checks, I bet, he calls (no idea on this call - why didn't he raise?) and shows me A8o

Hand 2:

AhAd on the button (again!). One caller in mid position, CO raises, I reraise, both blinds and the caller call the 4. CO thinks for a second and calls.

Flop Qd2s4c

Checked to me, and I bet it. Everyone calls.

Turn Jc.

Checked to the CO who bets 4, I go with my read of AQo for him and raise. Everyone else folds. He thinks for a while and calls.

River was a blank. He checks, I bet, he calls, shows me AQo. I drag a nice pot.

Sadly that was the only hand worth mentioning I won. Only other one was when I flopped a terrible flush with 8c5c in the big blind, bet out and no one called.

Down 12bbs on the session.

[Frond]

down 12 bbs is not bad at all. That can happen in single hand you know.

How is the book reading going?

[threeducks]

[ QUOTE ]
Read Small Stakes Hold'Em

[/ QUOTE ]

Banzi - I read most of the replies - quite interesting. You need to listen to them. I have been where you are and I am still working on my game.

BTW, when in vegas I my wife likes to play at the Mandelay Bay 4/8 kill if you have the bankroll. I like it. Others would know better than I.

Until you finish SSHE - This is what Ed Miller told me to do:
[ QUOTE ]
The formula for beating the local $3-$6 is pretty simple. Play TIGHT, and play HARD preflop with good hands and on the flop when you hit your hand. And then HANG ON TIGHT and don't fold (unless it's like two bets to you on the turn and you have just a weakish pair).

Here's what I mean.

A8s in the first few seats? Fold it.
Q9s anywhere except the blinds? Fold it.
98s anywhere except the blinds? Fold it.
A9o anywhere? Fold it.
QTo anywhere? Fold it.
Raise in front of you? Fold everything weaker than AQ/AJs and 99. If you play, reraise. ALWAYS.

That's tight. You're going to go stretches of 40 hands where you don't play one. That's right! No grousing about how you "can't seem to get a hand." You're not supposed to get many hands.

ATs anywhere in an unraised pot? Raise it.
KJs anywhere in an unraised pot? Raise it.
99 anywhere in an unraised pot? Raise it.
AK anywhere after a raise? Reraise it.
You have the button in an unraised pot? Raise any two suited T or higher (e.g., QTs), raise your pairs 88 and higher.

You're actions preflop should be at least 3:1 raising versus limping. Suited hands beg to be raised. Big offsuit hands beg to be raised. Big pairs beg to be raised. The main limping hands are small pairs (66 and lower), small suited aces (A7s and lower) ON THE BUTTON OR CUTOFF (you're folding otherwise), and that's about it. Better suited hands you're raising. Bigger pairs you're raising. Offsuit hands you're not playing if it's like QT, and you're raising if it's like KQ. Not much in-between.

Since you're raising so much preflop, you should be playing big pots postflop. If you hit the flop, you're going to push... HARD.

Flop an overpair? Raise and reraise the flop.
Flop top pair/top kicker? Likewise.
Flop a flush draw or open-ended straight draw? Raise and reraise the flop! (This is if you use both cards for your draw. If there's three on the board and one in your hand, the draw isn't as strong.)

Then it gets a little trickier. If someone bets into you on the flop, the pot is big, and several players in the pot haven't called yet, raise even more hands. Raise middle pair. Raise hands like KQ on a T94 flop. Here's another example.

Three people limp, and you raise on the button with JTs. Big blind calls, and limpers call. Flop comes KT9 with one of your suit. Everyone folds to the player on your right who bets. Raise! You have good winning chances with your pair and draw, and your raise will protect the big pot and maximize your chance to win.

When in doubt, raise. Get into that habit. It's kind of hard to play too hard on the flop, especially if multiple people have yet to call a bet.

On the turn and river you slow down to resistance. If you jammed the flop, you can keep betting the turn and river, but if you get raised, slow down and just call down unless you have a whopper.

That's the basic formula. TIGHT preflop, JAM preflop and on the flop, VALUE BET the turn and river, and HANG ON TIGHT if raised on those streets. That will beat any $3-$6 game I've ever played.

The important thing is not to think much any any one pot, session, or even month. This is a strategy (and game) of averages. Sometimes your set gets cracked. Sometimes you build a huge pot with a flush draw and miss. Sometimes you raise middle pair and run into top pair and don't improve. That stuff is SUPPOSED to happen.

But sometimes your set holds up. Sometimes your top pair/top kicker holds up. Sometimes you build a monster pot with the nut flush draw and GET THERE. On average, hand after hand, your aggression has you betting more money with better hands than your opponents do. That's what the key is. Who cares if 6 people see the flop and 2 see the river? Who cares if one of them makes a flush on the river? That's the whole point. If you're waiting for good hands and playing against 6 players, you're going to win more often than they will. If you build big pots, then eventually you'll get their money. The hiccups in between are 100% irrelevant.

(P.S. The above strategy isn't optimal. I tailored it to be simple and to address the weaknesses I think are probably in OP's play. One size doesn't fit all, your mileage may vary, yada yada.)

[/ QUOTE ]

[threeducks]

[ QUOTE ]
down 12 bbs is not bad at all. That can happen in single hand you know.

How is the book reading going?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not understand most of SSHE until my 3rd reading. Then it started to sink in. My first reading actually caused me to play worse since I misinterpreted it. You do not play every hand like the book says. You play tight ABC poker and look for spots. When you master ABC then use SSHE - that is my opinon for what its is worth.

If you up against good low limit players then be careful.

Good luck.

[banzi]

I'm on my 3rd reading. I will admit that it's going to take me probably 10+ readings to get it all down. I'm highlighting, making notes - doing anything I can to get the information in. I might have to buy another copy as this one is battle-worn already!

The game today was interesting. At one point I was stuck around 30+bbs and pulled it back (the AA hand helped a LOT, along with a few tiny ones here and there) and I felt like I was playing well, but I had to go to a prior engagement and left around 4pm. I won't be going back to that particular casino, even if it is very close to my place - the people there were just rude and the dealers weren't that good at all.

I found myself wishing I could've stayed a little while longer though - my table image was getting better. I was showing down the winner or raising enough to make people think twice about calling with their offsuit rags.

I *might* try and head out again tonight somewhere, but that depends on the better half [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[SNOWBALL]

you probably play really badly after the flop

[Hamlet]

I think this hand needs a little back story.

Everything until the turn is very standard.

Normally when someone checkraises you on the turn in a 2-4 game, they have top pair beat. Do you normally 3-bet the turn in this situation, or was it dependent on the way the check-raiser was playing? It was obviously correct in this case, but in the vast majority of 2-4 games, it would be spewing.

On the river, the Ace is a bad card for you. Not only does it complete the only semi-bluffing hands that could have connected (say QT and AJ), but it makes a bad King less likely to call your bet even if you are good. I would check the river, unless you KNOW that the guy you're against will call with any pair.

You ask why he just called your river bet. Do people normally raise you with top pair, bad kicker after you've 3-bet the turn. Calling the river seems like his normal play. The more compelling question is "why did he call your 3-bet on the turn with Ace-high, no draw?"

This hand makes me think your opponents think you're a maniac.

[ QUOTE ]

KdQd on button. Two late position callers. I raise to 4, both blinds and two callers come in.

Flop K75 rainbow.

Checked to me. I bet, one caller.

Turn J of the fourth suit.

Checked to me. I bet, he raises. I reraise. He calls.

River Ad

He checks, I bet, he calls (no idea on this call - why didn't he raise?) and shows me A8o



[/ QUOTE ]