Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can't Find a Way Out

[banzi]

Hi there,

I just moved to Vegas for other reasons and I started playing again. Before I would simply keep my playing to trips out here as a tourist and always did okay at this limit.

However, now I'm here I am finding myself constantly losing to stupid draws that always seem to get there. I have been playing for quite a while and I *think* I have a sound game theory pre-flop. I mostly stick to:

AKo
AKs
AA
KK
QQ
AQs
JJ
TT
99
88
AQo

if I'm early or middle, and add maybe AJ, ATs KQ, JTs and Axs if I'm in late, cutoff and button. I'm not afraid to raise and do a fair amount, but I always seem to get called down with some garbage hand like T6o and they river 2p on me.

I have tried playing super tight (didn't work), aggresive (didn't work - lost quicker. I don't understand how someone can call 4 bets pre-flop with K7o but there you go) and I know I should be happy that they do it, but is this just variance or something else?

How do you deal with these very loose, very passive games?

[jesse8888]

My first two questions:

1. What is your sample size?
2. How big is the rake?

I've come to the conclusion (on my own) that 2/4 with a standard rake is almost impossible to beat.

[banzi]

Sample size? Probably 100+ hours at Red Rock and Monte Carlo at 2/4 since July 2007.

Rake is 10% $4 max.

[banzi]

As a quickie follow-up, I had a long chat with a very nice lady at Monte Carlo who I've played with as a tourist for years and years, and told her basically what's going on and she recommended I move to 2/1 NL rather than limit.

I'm not sure she's right - as a tourist I did okay in these games but now something's changed. It's strange. I'm hoping it's simply variance and a 3-month cold run of cards.

I am not afraid to raise pre-flop. I am always wary of my position relative to others and I am not bad at reading. I check-raise often enough that I think I keep them guessing, but I also lead out with TPTK or NFD. The calling stations simply call, call, call and pick me off a little at a time.

[jesse8888]

100 hours is only like 3500 hands, which could obviously just be variance.

Assuming you're crushing the game to the tune of 2 Big bets per hour before rake, all of your profits could be going down the hole in the form of rake and tips (actually, you could be paying up to 3 or 4 Big bets an hour in drop).

In short, I don't know if you're playing well or not, but there's a good chance that you're on a big down swing AND the game is practically unbeatable.

[banzi]

I agree that some of it is variance, but the rest I'm not sure of.

The rake is tough at 2/4 but I'm not looking for riches - 1BB an hour is FINE with me but I can't even manage that. In fact, since I got here I've had a single winning session. One.

Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was, but that's fixable with study and practice. However, I can't seem to figure out what to do with these loose passive games where no matter what you raise with in position, no one respects it. No one respects raises or bets post-flop and for many, this would be a gold mine, but I constantly see something like this (happened yesterday - my memory for past hands is hazy right now but it's the general gizst).

Hero: AKh in cutoff. I raise to 4. Five people call.
Flop AK7 rainbow. Checked to me, I bet. One caller.
Turn 2 unsuited. I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.
River 2. I check, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I cap, he calls and shows me A2.

Would a check raise on the flop have gotten him out? No way. These people simply will not fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[KitCloudkicker]

i agree with the above comments.

in addition, some more points:

1) you are playing too tight preflop. in 2/4 live games (which are typically loose-passive) you should be playing any PP, any suited broadway, and any suited Ace, regardless of position. if you raised preflop (assuming no one has raised yet) anytime you had a suited broadway you woulndt be far off. you should be playing suited connectors down to 76s from MP or later, assuming people have limped in before you. see the loose games starting hand chart in SSHE.

2) because you are playing too tight preflop, you probably do not have a lot of experience getting in marginal situations postflop. thus your postflop play is likely far from optimal. I suggest you post some hands that you feel are troublesome in this forum.

3) keep in mind that most money in poker is made after the flop. many books focus on preflop play because that is the easiest to learn. however, learning preflop strategy is not by itself going to make you a very big winner even in easy games.

welcome to the forums, and good luck.

[fishyak]

I've played LV profitably last 3 years, 2-5 trips per year, LLHE 2/4-4/8.

1) Another vote for SSHE. Early on, I made a business card size "cheat sheet" to remind me of PF do's and don'ts. It's auto pilot now.

2) For LLHE, IMO, you are in the wrong casinos. MGM, Bally's, and Excal offer much softer settings. Your locations tends to have far more locals. Search out the drunk passive tourist meat.

3) SSHE will let you play more hands PF, properly, and get you more action. Importantly, it will show you when to be aggressive in both pre and post flop. That is where the $ is.

4) Yes, variance is *itch, but in the long run, raising premium hands PF, hitting TPTK, and pounding away from there is very profitable in these games. ABC poker, NOTHING special.

5) Keep an Excel spreadsheet of your results, separated by game and casino.

Give these 90 days and let us know how you are doing.

[banzi]

Okay will do. I'm off to go buy the book.

[Hamlet]

banzi, can you post more hands?

I disagree with the people telling banzi to loosen up. I think he's better off playing tight until he's sure that his post-flop play is solid. With the rake in 2-4, I suspect that alot of the hands recommended will be losing hands if his post-flop play is not solid.

banzi, on the hand you posted, I would typically just bet, bet, bet. In this particular hand, that would have resulted in getting 3-bets on the turn while you were ahead, and putting 2-bets in on the river when you were behind. Contrast that with the way you played it, which got 2 bets in while you were ahead, and 4 bets in while you were behind.

Checkraising the turn is not terrible, but I think in general it is going to result in a little less money going into the pot over the long haul. In this case, you got 2 bets into the pot instead of 3. If he had had a weak hand, he might not have bet at all. Think if his hand were QJ, QT, or JT. He'll likely take a free card, giving him a free chance to beat you. The only time checkraising will be better than just betting is if he has specifically a weak ace, or if he is very aggressive.

Once you've checkraised the turn, it is really silly to checkraise the river. What hand is going to bet that you beat? Any ace is very likely to just check behind you after your turn checkraise. After he 3-bets, capping it is very bad. You are beat here almost always, unless you are playing a complete maniac. And even a complete maniac sometimes gets lucky. When 4 bets go in on the river on a board like this, two pair is almost never good.