Mandatory front page AC thread: Security in AC land

[ShakeZula06]

There is a common debate between ACers and statists over protection in AnarchoCapitalism. It typically goes as follows.

Statist-With no government, there will be no police and no one to stop me from violating your property rights.

AC- Not true, there is a demand for protection of property and a way to supply protection in a free market. Private Security companies would develop.

Statist- Yeah, and then the biggest and most powerful security company will just blow up all it's competitors and then game over man, back comes the state, and it'll probably be a tyrannical dictatorship.

The Statist forgets one thing though. That is that wars are expensive, very expensive. One line that Riddick would use is "What do you think the ROI is on waging war?" . Think about it. Think about all the money we as taxpayers have paid for the war in Iraq. Do you think we've made a profit off of that?

The government is projected to spend over $300 billion on the war in Iraq by the 30th of this month (last revised in August, source found here ). And we still have very little control over the area. How many people do you know (besides that conniving bastard Bill Gates, just waiting for AC society to come about) can afford that? How many companies could amass enough money through voluntary transactions to be able to field a military to create a state?

No, war is a product of the state. The state has a monopoly on both (a) security/military and (b) acceptable theft. Using these means, those that have power in the government can profit from it (for example, Cheney and Halliburton) even though it is not a profitable endeveur for the investors (taxpayers). War profitteering is made by a very very small minority (much less the 1%) of those paying for a war.

Agree? Disagree? Why or why not?

[Joe Camel]

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Statist- Yeah, and then the biggest and most powerful security company will just blow up all it's competitors and then game over man, back comes the state, and it'll probably be a tyrannical dictatorship.

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File this under "obviously."

This argument that war is not profitable is insufficient. Sure it's not profitible for "the people" but neither is ANYTHING else the government does. The important thing is that the ruling class gets their loot, and they certainly are, aren't they? More and more every year.

Basically the problem is, you claim that the state would not emerge out of whatever starting conditions you claim, and yet in history the state has emerged. What is so different about now that this would not happen today? I would claim that if you somehow eliminated the state, it would re-emerge much, much faster than before, simply because that is what most people think is good and right (whereas before the state existed it is harder for people to accept being taxed and jailed, etc.)

[BCPVP]

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What is so different about now that this would not happen today?

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Time preferences

[iron81]

Please say why AC security companies would not behave similary to Colombian Paramilitaries, which I contend are similar to AC security companies. Its clear that these organizations find war to be profitable.

Wiki

[ShakeZula06]

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Please say why AC security companies would not behave similary to Colombian Paramilitaries, which I contend are similar to AC security companies. Its clear that these organizations find war to be profitable.

Wiki

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In columbia there is a much smaller relative value given to property rights. Resources are also not available to the same degree.

[iron81]

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In columbia there is a much smaller relative value given to property rights. Resources are also not available to the same degree.

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I would say the landowners who hire the paramilitaries place a high value on their property rights, since they spend millions of dollars on them. And I think you underestimate how much drug money is floating around Colombia. And if there were more resources, that would just mean there is more to fight over.

[ShakeZula06]

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This argument that war is not profitable is insufficient. Sure it's not profitible for "the people" but neither is ANYTHING else the government does. The important thing is that the ruling class gets their loot, and they certainly are, aren't they? More and more every year.


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That's a pretty good arguement for AC is't it?
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Basically the problem is, you claim that the state would not emerge out of whatever starting conditions you claim, and yet in history the state has emerged.

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Well, in the past people wanted government. ACists have had no qulams with the fact that AC could not come unless the people wanted it.
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What is so different about now that this would not happen today?

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Respect for property rights, sufficient resources for life, and one thing not fullfilled yet, which is a want for AC society by the people.
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I would claim that if you somehow eliminated the state, it would re-emerge much, much faster than before, simply because that is what most people think is good and right (whereas before the state existed it is harder for people to accept being taxed and jailed, etc.)

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If it happened today, yeah. I doubt people would be jailed or taxed in AC land, do you?

[pvn]

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The important thing is that the ruling class gets their loot, and they certainly are, aren't they? More and more every year.

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Exactly! So, how is this an argument *for* statism? The state *facilitates* this looting.

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I would claim that if you somehow eliminated the state, it would re-emerge much, much faster than before, simply because that is what most people think is good and right

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The state won't be "somehow" eliminated. It will only cease to exist when enough people want it to; in this case, the spontaneous re-emergence is clearly not a given.

[Nielsio]

Market Anarchy objections
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5077&page=

[The once and future king]

States by any sensible defintion have only existed from about the 16th century. War has existed alot lot longer than that.