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  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:53 PM
Supwithbates Supwithbates is offline
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Default 25nl 3betting light

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($18.40)
BB ($19.20)
UTG ($12.80)
MP ($7.20)
CO ($33.60)
Hero ($25.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $3.

Flop: ($8.35) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $29.6</font>, Hero calls $14.40 (All-In).


No HUD data available but my table reads were that he was aggressive, and probably playing around 20-25/15-20 over 50ish hands.

Flop play I'm basically willing to get it in with decent equity if he does have AA/KK/AK but I think his range is much wider, so I decide to bet enough to get QQ/JJ/TT/AQ etc to fold, as well as enough to give myself correct odds to call a shove soas not to surrender the equity I have in the pot when I can't force a fold.


The only other way I can envision playing this flop is to c-bet smaller intending to fold to a raise, but if this ellicits him to come along with QQ-JJ then I might as well be checking for the freecard. If I am planning on shoving any turn if he smoothcalls, then I risk getting it in with low equity vs. a slowplayed monster. It also probably makes him more likely to slowplay since shoving over my cbet with AA/AK/KK would seem like an overbet if I only cbet 4$
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:57 PM
Lego05 Lego05 is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

Pre-Flop 3bet's a little big...$3.5 would be my standard

Flop c-bet's a little big...you can make smaller c-bets in 3bet pots. $5.25 or so would be fine. It's still an easy call on his shove.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:15 PM
Hebel Hebel is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

I tend to only 3bet light from the blinds to balance my range. pf I tend to just call here if villain is deep because the implied odds are better.
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:33 PM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

[ QUOTE ]

Flop play I'm basically willing to get it in with decent equity if he does have AA/KK/AK but I think his range is much wider, so I decide to bet enough to get QQ/JJ/TT/AQ etc to fold, as well as enough to give myself correct odds to call a shove soas not to surrender the equity I have in the pot when I can't force a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the notion of betting to give yourself odds is flawed - the basic idea is that while the EV of making a call goes up if you bet more in the first place, you have to also account for the fact that you've sunk more money into the pot already. I'm lazy and not going to work this all out right now, but take it into account from the beginning of the hand.

That said, I like the hand.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:36 PM
C4LL4W4Y C4LL4W4Y is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to only 3bet light from the blinds to balance my range. pf I tend to just call here if villain is deep because the implied odds are better.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry if it seems like i'm picking on you, but...

if you mean that you only 3bet light from the blinds, and never in position, then you're bleeding $$. position, position, position.

and you shouldn't be calling for implied odds when you have 100bbs, even if villain is deep, unless you're sure villain will stack off when you flop your flush and/or obvious straight.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:41 PM
Hebel Hebel is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

I like it when people correct me, thats how you learn. Please keep it up.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:48 PM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

[ QUOTE ]

and you shouldn't be calling for implied odds when you have 100bbs, even if villain is deep, unless you're sure villain will stack off when you flop your flush and/or obvious straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would pretty much never fold 98s on the button in this spot to one raise.
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:05 PM
C4LL4W4Y C4LL4W4Y is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

and you shouldn't be calling for implied odds when you have 100bbs, even if villain is deep, unless you're sure villain will stack off when you flop your flush and/or obvious straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would pretty much never fold 98s on the button in this spot to one raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's fine, but if you're doing this you're not calling (or raising) for implied odds. your position and post-flop play probably have enough value to make the play profitable, though i'm certain that i wouldn't be doing this every time.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:06 PM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

[ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the notion of betting to give yourself odds is flawed - the basic idea is that while the EV of making a call goes up if you bet more in the first place, you have to also account for the fact that you've sunk more money into the pot already. I'm lazy and not going to work this all out right now, but take it into account from the beginning of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I changed my mind; here it is.

Let's consider an artificial example to make it very clear. Say there is $10 in the pot, you have $30 behind, and I cover you. I can choose among betting $5 and calling a shove, or betting $10 and calling a shove, and let's say I win 1/3 (we'll ignore splits.) Further simplifying, let's say that you shove 25% of the time, and fold 75% of the time.

What are the EVs of these two lines?

Line 1 : bet $5, call shove.
Line 2 : bet $10, call shove.

75% of the time, I win $10 in either case. The remaining 25% of the time, you shove. When you shove, I can consider the money that I've put into the pot lost, and then assess what I gain from a call.

If I bet $5, then you shoving $30 means there is $45 in the pot and it costs me $25 to call. 1/3 * 45 - 2/3 * 25 = - 5/3. If I bet $10, then there is $50 in the pot after your shove, and it costs me $20 to call. 1/3 * 50 - 2/3 * 20 = 10/3.

So, the EVs of the lines:

line 1: EV = .75*$10 + .25*(-5 - 5/3)
line 2: EV = .75*$10 + .25*(-10 + 10/3)

Sure enough, they are equal. This is because in both cases, I am getting all of my money in 25% of the the time with the same equity in the pot.

There are a couple of things to note. If I do not give myself odds, then I can do better by folding than calling the shove. So, all other things being equal, if you're truly bluffing, not giving yourself odds and folding to the shove will be a better play than giving yourself odds and calling. However, all other things will not be equal. The main variable that changes is your response to my bet. Obviously in the case where I bet $.25, there is very little chance that you fold. Bet sizing will play a big part in determining the likelihood of your responses, and so the analysis above is oversimplified.

The main thing, though, is that betting to give yourself odds doesn't really work. Betting pretty large is good, though, because if you're not 3betting light, then you're going to want to be betting legit hands most of the time in this scenario, so you leak less information that way.
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  #10  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:55 AM
Supwithbates Supwithbates is offline
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Default Re: 25nl 3betting light

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the notion of betting to give yourself odds is flawed - the basic idea is that while the EV of making a call goes up if you bet more in the first place, you have to also account for the fact that you've sunk more money into the pot already. I'm lazy and not going to work this all out right now, but take it into account from the beginning of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I changed my mind; here it is.

Let's consider an artificial example to make it very clear. Say there is $10 in the pot, you have $30 behind, and I cover you. I can choose among betting $5 and calling a shove, or betting $10 and calling a shove, and let's say I win 1/3 (we'll ignore splits.) Further simplifying, let's say that you shove 25% of the time, and fold 75% of the time.

What are the EVs of these two lines?

Line 1 : bet $5, call shove.
Line 2 : bet $10, call shove.

75% of the time, I win $10 in either case. The remaining 25% of the time, you shove. When you shove, I can consider the money that I've put into the pot lost, and then assess what I gain from a call.

If I bet $5, then you shoving $30 means there is $45 in the pot and it costs me $25 to call. 1/3 * 45 - 2/3 * 25 = - 5/3. If I bet $10, then there is $50 in the pot after your shove, and it costs me $20 to call. 1/3 * 50 - 2/3 * 20 = 10/3.

So, the EVs of the lines:

line 1: EV = .75*$10 + .25*(-5 - 5/3)
line 2: EV = .75*$10 + .25*(-10 + 10/3)

Sure enough, they are equal. This is because in both cases, I am getting all of my money in 25% of the the time with the same equity in the pot.

There are a couple of things to note. If I do not give myself odds, then I can do better by folding than calling the shove. So, all other things being equal, if you're truly bluffing, not giving yourself odds and folding to the shove will be a better play than giving yourself odds and calling. However, all other things will not be equal. The main variable that changes is your response to my bet. Obviously in the case where I bet $.25, there is very little chance that you fold. Bet sizing will play a big part in determining the likelihood of your responses, and so the analysis above is oversimplified.

The main thing, though, is that betting to give yourself odds doesn't really work. Betting pretty large is good, though, because if you're not 3betting light, then you're going to want to be betting legit hands most of the time in this scenario, so you leak less information that way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I misrepresented my action.

My large betsize wasn't to give myself odds to call a shove, though if I intend to call a shove I'd want odds to do so.

The larger bet was to increase fold equity, so that QQ JJ etc. know I'm playing for stacks and will fold. The added effect of the larger bet is that I now have correct odds to call a shove.

If the fold equity of 4$ and 8$ was the same, I'd just bet smaller every time and fold to a raise if I didn't have odds.

The main concern I have is that regardless of my opponent's holdings, I have a significant amount of equity in this hand, but am never ahead. If I felt that open shoving gave me the most fold equity of my options, I'd certainly do that... but I think this looks more like a bluff and so I bet a more standard potsize amount.
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