How much difference does it make?

[m1illion]

When playing live, cards are burned to prevent cheating. Another consequence is that cards are removed from play that will improve your hand. We have all seen a flop come 444 or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],etc, so it is not unreasonable to say that the burn pile can have these same contents at times.
Online, however, there is no burn of any kind. It follows then that you are drawing to the entire deck. Therefore, miracle suck outs occur at a greater frequency than in live play. The question is, how much more often? How great is the effect on cash games vs. tourneys?

Sorry, if this has been covered, I couldn't find it.

[waffle]

Burn cards make 0 difference in the rate of 'miracle suck outs'. The game will play exactly the same, burn card or no.

[m1illion]

[ QUOTE ]
Burn cards make 0 difference in the rate of 'miracle suck outs'. The game will play exactly the same, burn card or no.

[/ QUOTE ]
It really can't.

[SamIAm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Burn cards make 0 difference in the rate of 'miracle suck outs'. The game will play exactly the same, burn card or no.

[/ QUOTE ]
It really can't.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you're trying to say.

Waffle is right, of course; removing a random card doesn't make the next card any less random.
-Sam

[m1illion]

Heads up
dealer gives you two cards
dealer gives me two cards
dealer burns three cards
dealer flops three cards
dealer burns a card
52-2-2-3-3-1= 41 possible turn cards

computer deals you two card
computer deals me two cards
computer flops three cards
52-2-2-3=45 possible turn cards

[SamIAm]

I can't tell if you're kidding.

Assuming this isn't just a troll, let's say we're each dealt AA, and the flop is 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. By your calculation above, what are the 4 cards that are possible in the 2nd example that aren't possible in the first?

I suppose you could say "you can't be dealt the burn cards", but we don't know what those are. And that's the point. Any card is equally likely, and all 45 are possible.
-Sam

P.S. Dealers don't burn 3 cards before the flop.

[m1illion]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose you could say "you can't be dealt the burn cards",

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I am saying.
The dealer holds in his hand a finite set of cards. I don't care what they are, I am interested in their relationship to the finite set of cards that the computer is dealing from, which is a larger set.

[cantona]

#Absolutely no difference whatsoever.

All unseen cards are equal in terms of probability, just as the cards in the other players hands are. To you they are just unseen.

For every time the burn card would have helped you , it would have hurt you exactly the same amount of times. I suppose thats the easy way to test it at home with a deck of cards, without doing the maths etc.

[Winenose]

Interesting..

Lets say this is the situation(heads-up):
Player A has a made hand (pair / whatever)
Player B has a drawing hand (straight / flush)

When dealer burns a card before dealing the flop then there is 1/48 chance that one of your outs is already gone.

Does not happen on internet.

I understand that the burned card is completely random, but it does seem to reduce the number of possible outs.

I guess I need a longer explanation to understand why it doesn't matter.

[KJ o]

OP is 99.5% wrong. Why that is so is perfectly explained above. What makes him 0.5% right is that live, there is always a slight chance that the deck isn't perfectly shuffled. If the deck has just been used for playing poker, there is no particular reason why any one card should be more likely to appear as the burn card (or is there?), and the odds should remain exactly the same.

However, assume that the deck was last used to play "social bridge" (i.e. tricks are collected by winner as opposed to placed faced down by ach player) or patience and then hasn't been properly shuffled. In this case, a flop consisting of three spades would maybe cause the burn card and/or the turn card to be a spade with slightly higher probability.

However, please note that this should cause suck outs to be slightly more common live, not less.

On a second reading, I'd say OP is 99.995% wrong, given all of the non-likely conditions outlined above.