ruling question-hidden chips

otter · #1 09-21-2007, 03:18 PM

This happened a couple days ago in a $5-10nl game. A player went all in and from what we could see he had $400 in red chips. The other player ($4,000 behind) called pretty quickly). The issue was that behind these 4 stacks were 3 purple chips that you couldn't see unless you were sitting right next to him AND looking for them. Is the caller required to call $1900 or $400?

I'm sure this is pretty basic, but I don't know what the rule is.

SellingtheDrama · #2 09-21-2007, 03:27 PM

should be $400 and a Capone for hiding big chips.

This is one thing I see literally every session and is one of the very few things I'll get nitty on.

CincyLady · #3 09-21-2007, 03:33 PM

It's one reason why, if you had not planned on calling higher than you think it is, that instead of insta calling, you at the very least these days, ask for a chip count.

Headhunter13 · #4 09-21-2007, 04:37 PM

Exact scenario happened at Caesar's IN, (guy had 4 stacks of red and 2 purple $500 chips hidden behind the stacks). Floor ruled that the $500 chips played and gave the player a warning.

Floor said that the caller could have asked for a count, and failed to do so, so by calling all-in, he was bound to the entire amount.

--Headhunter

effang · #5 09-21-2007, 05:02 PM

i think TT will respond here, but at higher stakes this is a warning, but it is the player calling's responsibility, since it is assumed that at higher stakes the players are good enoug h to know what's going on.

youtalkfunny · #6 09-21-2007, 05:20 PM

No, it is "assumed" that the players know to keep their large chips visible. You don't reward the guy who fails to follow this simple rule.

The alternative is to stop the game every time someone pushes, so that player B can ask Player A "How much is that?", or, "Are there any large chips buried in that stack that are not immediately visible?".

EVERY

SINGLE

TIME

SOMEBODY

PUSHES.

Do you want that? Of course not. That's why the rule is already in place.

Somebody who thinks he his calling $400 needs protection from somebody who is SECRETLY betting close to $2000.

Jeffage · #7 09-21-2007, 06:07 PM

It's a pretty good idea to verify the total amount of a bet before calling - I would never "insta-call" in a no-limit game. If he just said call, I think he is liable for the whole amount in this situation but I'm not sure. I certainly would never find myself in this situation if I was playing a NL game.

Jeff

Jeffage · #8 09-21-2007, 06:12 PM

One problem is that the OP states "from all we could see" after the person went all-in. There is no statement that the player hid the chips - perhaps they were on the side of his stack but not on top where they should be. This is not equal to him deliberately obscuring them behind his stack.

The bottom line is that someone at a poker table said call w/o verifying the size of the bet. What if he had the best hand? Would he say, wait I thought you had only $400 so that's all I want from you? No, he wouldn't. I don't condone hiding chips, but in a NL game that involves four-figure bets....

VERIFY THE AMOUNT OF A BET FACING YOU BEFORE YOU CALL IT.

Jeff

soah · #9 09-21-2007, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One problem is that the OP states "from all we could see" after the person went all-in. There is no statement that the player hid the chips - perhaps they were on the side of his stack but not on top where they should be. This is not equal to him deliberately obscuring them behind his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

ORLY?

[ QUOTE ]
The issue was that behind these 4 stacks were 3 purple chips that you couldn't see unless you were sitting right next to him AND looking for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeffage · #10 09-21-2007, 06:46 PM

Ok, bad reading comprehension from me. But I still think that this person made a decision to call a bet w/o verifying the amount of it. If he had the best hand in this situation, would he return the excess or keep quiet? I can't see how he won't be held to calling the entire amount of the bet since he apparently verbalized his intention to do so w/o regard for the amount. If, after the person bet, the dealer said something like "Bet 400" and the bettor made no attempt to correct it, that's a different scenario than the one described and only 400 would play as the bet.

Jeff