It's time for the R Word...

[ShannonRyu]

I play in a similar game as you propose. This is how it is handled, and I seem to like it. When we buy in, $20 gets you $19 in chips (you can adjust as needed) but I like it because nobody ever has to "pay". If you win big, or bust out, there never is that holding-your-hand-out moment which we used to have. As the night progresses and the pots and purse build, someone buys in for $100 and receives $95 in chips. It's 5%, less than you'll find anywhere around here. You said you get around $2500 in the purse, thats $125. Is that enough? If not, adjust it up. People don't miss the money as much if you take it at buy in, most dissassociate the money from the chips anyways. IMO

[pfapfap]

Thanks all for the additional feedback. This is still an idea forming, so it's nice to get all the perspective. And yes, I know this is totally illegal. That doesn't concern me so much. Security down the road as I grow, that concerns me.

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's a "sharing the expenses" discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]
At first, yes, which is why I have no worries at all about this phase of it. I'm just thinking down the road. Basically, I want a clubhouse. Not a formal business, just a building that a bunch of us have to enjoy. Some nights there's poker.

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone (INCLUDING you) should pay the same amount.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. My plan is a coffee can kind of thing, sealed with a slot. I drop my chips in it with everybody else. I just, y'know, pocket them at the end of the night. At least at my current setup. Once I move it, I'd want to keep it self-sustaining, so funds would be kept separate, and expenses taken out of them directly, rather than just absorbed from my overall income.

[ QUOTE ]
"need it to do" needs more clearly defined. You might want to re-examine whether "want" means "need"

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. Want to do, then. I have a dream, damnit. It just so happens that all of my predilections point to me working adjacent to the law.

[ QUOTE ]
Will the neighbors in the location's area have problems? What about security?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is my primary concern, but that's down the road, so I'm not worrying yet.

[ QUOTE ]
We had a similar thread about half a year ago, I think, where many argued against the willingness to pay for a palace that they don't get to keep as their own. How high is this nightly expense fee going to be, to cover all of that?

[/ QUOTE ]
People seem to really like my game, the balance of professional and casual, and the overal atmosphere I work to create. They mostly seem happy to do what they can to keep it going. And in fact some of my ideas will make it overall cheaper for the regulars.


It's probably back in the thread, but here's what it seems to be boiling down to: Same closed group (plus slow growth of friends of trusted regulars) for the weekly cash games and small tournament series.

Cash games: 5% off of your intial buyins up to $100, plus an extra $5 if you cash out $200 or more (regardless of what you bought in for). Simple, easy, just a voluntary but strongy encouraged donation to the tin can.

Weekly tourneys: 10% off the top. I plan to do mostly shootouts and heavily weighted first prize structures.

Monthly tourneys: This is where we open it up to friends of friends, other poker groups, 2+2ers, etc. $20 (up from $15 now) for what will probably be a $100-$200 total buyin (up from $60-$100) with rebuys and addons. These are the events with the catered food and full bar. And with various connections I have, this will be hopefully be twice my expenses, so this is what really fuels the big upgrades. If it comes to it, I could probably set up some sort of legal charge by the catering company, who then donates it back to the house. And the cool folks we like from these get invited to the weekly games.

But holy crap, absolutely no advertising other than word of mouth, and everyone is warned to keep it mum and only talk with trusted people. I have names and contact info for everybody (once we move, kept offsite). Granted, it can't be contained forever, but I don't think at this level we're in much danger from the law. Security, on the other hand, will have to be addressed eventually.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
We had a similar thread about half a year ago, I think, where many argued against the willingness to pay for a palace that they don't get to keep as their own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thisis a good point. I don't mind paying a reasonable rake provided I am getting something for the rake. The most important thing to me is that the game be provided. That doesn't mean the place, table, and cards, that means the players. If the game consists of the same small group of friends we don't need you to make the game. We could have the game at anyones house its just a group of friends getting together. But if you are bringing a wide array of people who simply would not be available to me as players then you are providing the game to me.

[mxp2004]

[ QUOTE ]
But holy crap, absolutely no advertising other than word of mouth, and everyone is warned to keep it mum and only talk with trusted people. I have names and contact info for everybody (once we move, kept offsite).

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiousity, how did you build your players' list? Do you do any kind of screening before inviting players to your games? I don't run games on the same scale that you do, but I am looking to expand beyond my current group and just want to be careful about who gets invited to my home.

I don't want to hijack your thread, and so feel free to send me a PM if you don't think it's appropriate to respond here. Thanks for any help.

[diddyeinstein]

I think any serious advice has already been provided, let me just say that your set-up (both present and possibly future) is amazing.

I wish we had a game as frequent and varied as yours. Keep up the good work, and best of luck on staying out of trouble.

[whisker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think any serious advice has already been provided, let me just say that your set-up (both present and possibly future) is amazing.

I wish we had a game as frequent and varied as yours. Keep up the good work, and best of luck on staying out of trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

second that motion

[hitch1978]

[ QUOTE ]

I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Call yourself a poker player? This is just variance. Work out what the average is, and as long as you start out with the correct B/R you'll be fine, right?

[ QUOTE ]

mxp2004, I don't see how it's complicated. It's a lot simpler than a percentage rake, which is way too cardroom-y for me. The game feels like a big home game, I want to retain that as much as possible. It's a cover charge. And, for some, a processing fee.

SmallFry, I think there's a hell of a lot of value. At a cardroom, you pay $4 a pot and another $1/2 for tip, and alcohol is not included. I'm asking $5 a night cover charge, $5 donation more if you win. If anyone made a stink about it, I wouldn't force the person. But nothing says I have to invite him/her back.



[/ QUOTE ]

The simplest way for me, and the way that doesn't leave anyone feel bad, is this. Cinsider the average pot is x. Take y from every pot that is 4Xx, up to a maximum of z.

Where y= a nominal ammount that the winner of a large pot will hardly miss.
z= average weekly running costs +small ammount extra to build your business 'B/R'.

Simpe eh?

[pfapfap]

Yay, finally some positive feedback! Tho' to be fair, I went a bit gung ho crazy with the first post. I think most can see that my next "phase" isn't really that big of a deal.

Yes, I bring in players from a variety of sources. These people would not be able to play each other anywhere else.


How I Built My Game:

I grew it somewhat quickly, but didn't try to go meteoric too soon. First I gathered a few friends, only a couple of whom played poker with any sort of skill, for a BBQ and $10 cash game. Kept that up for a couple of weeks and then I tapped my other games. I had been building the network of games for a couple of years (tho' without the intent of starting my own), but I wanted to at least have something "established" at my house before inviting them.

My regular game was at a biker clubhouse, and it just so happened that some newer cash-filled poker enthusiasts showed up the first time I spread the word about my new game, so that was an immediate boost, and in fact they play my game more than at the bikers. A couple of the other regulars also make frequent appearances.

I had an occasional game with two other groups... one, a bunch of UC Berkeley grad students. The other, a game in the back room of a restaurant/bar. I pretty much absorbed both of those games, and they were instrumental in getting this one off the ground.

I also posted to one of those meetup sites, which I won't do again. The few folks I got from it are nice enough, just nothing really in common with me other than poker. I posted to craigslist, which I won't do again for security reasons, and because it attracted some of the best players we have. But those players are all great people and share many of my other interests and hobbies. I did structure my post in a way so that the sort of people I wanted to attract would recognize it, and I filtered people based on how I felt about their responses.

Basically now I just have the people I like invite friends of theirs, tho' I've had to cut that out a lot lately due to lack of space. I got very lucky that I hit a good combination of people right from the start, people who appreciate what I do (as many of them have hosted and stopped because of the headaches) and want to keep it alive.

Okay, so that's building the player database, but how did I attract and keep them? I started with a lot of tournaments, usually every two or three weeks. Food, booze, custom TD software, league tracking, big flashy payouts, etc. People like tournaments, so I viewed them as advertisement for the cash games. It was a safe environment with a fixed price to get comfortable with all these new people. Now that we know each other, the cash games also run quite well, and the tournaments are monthly. And I was also lucky that the friend who owns the catering company donated a full table, chairs, and booze/food to that first tourney. He also occasionally stops by with leftovers during the cash games, and lemme tell ya, people REALLY enjoy those nights. Newer people are usually floored when it happens. But back to the tournaments, I also spent several months tweaking the structure to get the proper mix of playability/time, and to generate a huge prize pool due to unlimited rebuys for two hours (plus addon after that). Boil a frog slowly, they always say.

I also try to make all of my guests feel comfortable and appreciated. I welcome them to the game, I'm cognizant of their tastes and desires, I try to be the right mix of fair and flexible, I listen to their concerns, I walk them out when they bust and let them whine at me, etc. I always have booze, I play good music on a nice system, I have warm lighting. I make the tournaments an "event" and give funny little writeups afterwards. I shmooze. Nice tables, good cards, decent chips. And, most importantly, Rule #1: No A-holes. I've kicked people out and given others vacations, and I'll do it again. The needs of the many.

And... location location location. The room is kickass, and it's separated from the house, so we can go into the wee hours (dawn has happened a couple of times). It also allows for people who lose to sort of fade into the night rather than have that walk to the door, and I suspect that's a factor in their comfort. We're also a few blocks from the BART, close to the highway, and between several major "hubs" of the area. In fact, this place is so great, I fear the game will suffer when we move, so I have to be very careful about picking the next space.

As to the stakes, I've been increasing those slowly so as not to push people away. We started with $10 10c/25c, moved up to $20 25c/50c, then $40 25c/50c, now we have that game and a $100 .5/1. I try not to make those with a smaller budget feel unwelcome or ostracized, as they're some of my favorite people, but I want the stakes to increase as my own skill/bankroll does. I also do occasional other games, such as dealer's choice if enough want to on the third table, and different sorts of off-week S&Gs (PLO, HORSE, etc), but it's been a while since one of those (which is why I want the weekly tourney series).

So yeah, that's enough masturbatory dribble about how much my game r0xx0rz. But hey, you asked, and I'm rather proud of what I've been able to do here. I've always wanted to improve my other games, but I've never been the host. It's a nice sort of validation to have all my ideas actually work. It's a lot of little things, and the whole is greater than the sum. It's a lot of effort (I spend usually 4-6 hours prep time before tourneys), but very much worthwhile.

And holy cripes, lemme tell ya, the networking has been amazing. And I'm not the type of guy who is good at that. Someone even told me the other day that I have more power than I realize, and a reason people like my game is that they respect that I have everybody's best interests in mind while juggling all that needs to be done.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
Call yourself a poker player? This is just variance. Work out what the average is, and as long as you start out with the correct B/R you'll be fine, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Eh, I want growth. There's no average to that.

[ QUOTE ]
The simplest way for me, and the way that doesn't leave anyone feel bad, is this. Cinsider the average pot is x. Take y from every pot that is 4Xx, up to a maximum of z. Where y= a nominal ammount that the winner of a large pot will hardly miss. z= average weekly running costs +small ammount extra to build your business 'B/R'. Simpe eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh. Let's see... either I can just take a small amount off the top and be done with it, no mention of it again... or I can stay sober and involved enough to monitor multiple tables, talk others into staying the same to do the rakes on their tables, and find somewhere to put all this raked money. In other words, a very in your face "yes I am taking your money" approach. And I'd be negatively affecting my game even more than it already is, what with me doing all the rebuys, dealing, and, y'know, trying to play a hand every now and again. Forget about trying to get any good reads on anybody.

I dunno, I like the less painful and obvious and work-involved method. I doubt I'd ever do a rake. I'd do time charge first. Keep in mind that, at least for now, I want to play in my game.

[KurtSF]

pfapfap,

lols, I actually got an invite to your game once. It was from the folks in the restaurant/bar, but BART quits so early and I don't have a car so I never could make it.

Anyway, I don't know how portable your set up is, but here's something I've been thinking about. I've got a line on some rooms in downtown SF that can be rented for $10-15 an hour, probably only $40-50 for the night. Depending on the room they are large enough for 2, 3, 4, maybe even 5 poker tables. They have locking doors, and entry could be managed with a cellphone. They are near bars and clubs, so I don't think you'd attract any attention. If your set-up is such that you can pack it in and pack it out in the same night, have you ever considered something like this, instead of signing an actual lease somewhere? I'm sure there's plenty of spots in the East Bay too like this, but I don't know of them off hand.

Also, I'd be willing to help set-up, manage, or grow a game, if you ever wanted any assistance. PM me if any of this sounds interesting or feasible.

RE: the rake, my suggestion is to keep it simple. 5% upon buying chips is easy to track and won't cause many hiccoughs. The $5 for cashing out $200 even if you're losing on the night or whatnot, I think just asks for an argument.