It's time for the R Word...

[pfapfap]

So the game I run will eventually lose its home. I would like to ultimately move it to a space of its own, and to that end I need some sort of sustainability. Even for the time being, I'd like to get help on funding all the little things I do that help make it the fabulous game it is.

So, yeah, this is a rake thread. Well, a "charging players" thread, anyway. People at my game are by and large in favor of a house fee, but I'm not sure what's good or fair. Here's what I'm thinkin'...

Thursday cash game. .25/.50 and .5/1 spread. There's usually $2-3k in the room, 15-25 players. I'm thinking of $2 off the top for those who buy-in to the $40 game, $5 off the top of the $100 game. Additionally, anyone who leaves with more than $200 kicks in another $5. Anyone who moves up games pays the additional $3.

Tuesday tournaments. This is a extension of what I've tried periodically instead of a cash game. We'd try different sorts of games, mix it up. I may do some 8-week series here and there for freerolls, WSOP packages, etc. For most of those, $50 buyin (or $45+$5 if it's for a points prize) and $10 vig.

For both of these I provide snacks and a stocked bar of hooch/soda. BYOB, but I have coolers and ice. Plenty of weed floating around.

I'll also move the big monthly Thursday donkament to one Sunday a month, probably increase the stakes and vig. Right now I charge $15 (aside from a few initial grumbles when I bumped it up from $10, nobody has any problem), which gets three or four beers, soda, and 1/3 to 1/2 a pizza, and it funds the hooch for the regular games. Having it on a weekend daytime would allow a much larger tournament, even deeper stacks, longer rounds, more tables, etc (40-50 people should work well). Probably pop that to $20 vig but have catered food, kegs, etc.

How does this seem to people? I'd really like to charge the least amount that reasonably does what I need it to do. I would be working fewer hours in order to put these on, so I need it to be something that will fund itself and give me some carrying around money. Tho' I'll be reinvesting most of it right back into improvements for the game, and ultimately finding a permanent home with even better upgrades. So those playing would have to understand that I'm just one guy and I need help maintaining something we've all come to cherish.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Horror stories?

[pfapfap]

In my mind, the next step regarding location is a shared space with public access (ie, not a home), to which several trusted people have keys. That way we can run games and rotate who's there to babysit. House fees would of course go to compensate the person. And the space would be paid for in cash with no paper trail, and no records on the premises.

Regarding the game, of course we'll be at 1/2 eventually, but we just started with .5/1. I figure at 1/2 we can experiment with having a dealer or two work for tips (and free imbibition). But for that to work, we need more turnover, so it'll have to wait for the bigger space with better security.

I'll also have a small kitchen for finger foods.

This is, of course, all hypothetical. A "what if I lived somewhere where this was totally legal, so don't worry about talking about it" kind of thought experiment.

[mxp2004]

[ QUOTE ]
Thursday cash game. .25/.50 and .5/1 spread. There's usually $2-3k in the room, 15-25 players. I'm thinking of $2 off the top for those who buy-in to the $40 game, $5 off the top of the $100 game. Additionally, anyone who leaves with more than $200 kicks in another $5. Anyone who moves up games pays the additional $3.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems way too complicated. Sounds like you've been running this game a long time. You know how much you spend on average for the food/drink, and you know how many players come to the game on average. From this point, it's simple math. If you spend on average $100 and you get on average 20 players, charge $5 a player and be done with it. Alternatively, charge the house fee on the way out the door: if this week you spent $120 and only 12 players showed, charge them $10 as they cash out.

[The Bus Driver]

[ QUOTE ]
charge the house fee on the way out the door: if this week you spent $120 and only 12 players showed, charge them $10 as they cash out.

[/ QUOTE ]
What about the guys who don't cash anything out?

[mxp2004]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
charge the house fee on the way out the door: if this week you spent $120 and only 12 players showed, charge them $10 as they cash out.

[/ QUOTE ]
What about the guys who don't cash anything out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're taking me a little to literally. I just mean charge each player his or her pro rata share of the expenses before leaving. Do it at any time that is convenient.

[Small Fry]

THis is probably going to sound a little harsh. Try to think of it as "tough love"

Basically, it sounds illegal. But you probably know this already. My next concern would be losing control of the game and who plays in it. You've already experienced one problem. Creating an illegal game, with a lot of money floating around, operating in a undisclosed location, is asking for trouble in my opinion. Not even going to get into the controlled substance issue... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But should you decide to pursue this I think a "cover charge" or possibly a "time" charge would be appropriate and easiest to manage. You could also have a two drink minimum....lol

Assuming players feel they are getting value for the fee, then this shouldn't be an issue. But if your "fee" is the same or more as the local, legal establishment, of which there are several to choose from, why would I play in your game?

Didn't read your 2nd post before responding

[whisker]

[ QUOTE ]
In my mind, the next step regarding location is a shared space with public access (ie, not a home) <SNIP>
And the space would be paid for in cash with no paper trail, and no records on the premises.


[/ QUOTE ]


As an honest landlord (i.e. one who has folks fill out a lease agreement and pays taxes on the income generated from my property) I assure you even if you paid me in cash there would be a paper trail.

Maybe you have an "under the table agreement" with someone who owns property? Do you think they are making enough money off you to lie for you when the authorities go and knock on their door and ask who is responsible for the potential illegal activities in the space they own?

[pfapfap]

Heh, thanks all for your blunt responses.

First off, I'm very good friends with a lawyer.

I'm not opening up an underground card den. Yet, anyway. Right now it's a matter of keeping more or less my same game, just trying to find the best way to make it work without opening up the game to higher turnover. My concern is more security than legality.

mxp2004, I don't see how it's complicated. It's a lot simpler than a percentage rake, which is way too cardroom-y for me. The game feels like a big home game, I want to retain that as much as possible. It's a cover charge. And, for some, a processing fee.

I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.

SmallFry, I think there's a hell of a lot of value. At a cardroom, you pay $4 a pot and another $1/2 for tip, and alcohol is not included. I'm asking $5 a night cover charge, $5 donation more if you win. If anyone made a stink about it, I wouldn't force the person. But nothing says I have to invite him/her back.

whisker, you're right about that, this is more pipe dream territory. But I live in the Bay Area. There are alternate economies. You'd be surprised what's out there, and how much of it there is.


As I said, my main concern is security. I'm not going to open the game up too much while I'm still renting at a residence shared by others. But I think the way I'm envisioning will be a happy medium... keep the cash games with the same crowd (and trusted friends of same, so slow growth). And the weekly tournament series, also same intimate group. But the monthly things, those we open up for people to invite people from their other games (and 2+2ers). The vig is larger, so with more people, it's a monthly boost to the fund that improves the room as a whole. And we only invite the folks we really like to join us on our other days. We don't even mention it to anybody else. And if it slips, oh well, too bad, this is what they get to play in.

[Small Fry]

Mine was mostly a rhetorical question. But it's one you need to answer to keep the game alive.

I still think a base fee is the way to go. If you are able to keep track of when players come and go, then a time fee becomes more realistic. Or even a combo of the two. Initial cover charge up front, followed by a time charge when they leave. This gets them in the door cheap. Of course it does pose a problem with the guy that loses all his cash so you'll want to install an ATM. I'd extend credit also at .5% interest. Compounded weekly. Excepting credit cards might become problematic initially but I know a guy at Visa who I can put you in touch with... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

ps. hope that lawyer feels the same about you. And that his expertise is in something other than acquisitions and mergers....lol

[mxp2004]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly not a typical home game.