Future of the MMB forum discussion

[Evan]

There are going to be some upcoming changes in this forum.

1) Linking sites you're affiliated with is not allowed. This rule was always in place but was not enforced in the past. This is the request of 2+2 admins and is non-negotiable. If you want to make a post but feel like this rule hinders you please PM me and I will help you find a solution that benefits you, the forum readers and 2+2.

2) When the forum software is upgraded in April we are planning to merge this forum with the Finance and Investing forum. The reason for this is that the quality and quantity of content in this forum is not as we think it can be.

Before you freak out there are two things I'd like to make clear. First, this plan is not set in stone. If things change over the next couple weeks and this forum turns around significantly Mat has told me they can easily leave it as is. Second, if we do go through with the merger I plan for the forum to be re-split in the future. If I didn't think this forum could survive on its own I would not have wasted my time being a mod here.

3) I want to see the direction of this forum shift to more interesting and valuable topics. This is the primary reason I wanted to moderate the forum. I'm interested, both personally and professionally, in the topics at hand but I don't think they're getting the sort of discussion they ought to. Right now there is a ton of discussion about tweaking adsense sites, flipping trinkets on ebay and things like that. I don't mean to imply that these topics aren't worthy of any discussion, but I think the people here are capable of a lot more. To make a lame poker analogy, I feel like this forum is devoting way too much time talking about what hands to limp on the button preflop and not spending nearly enough time talking about more complicated and valuable topics.

I'd like to see the site actually live up to the title. Some ideas for topics I'd like to see more coverage on are: hiring decisions, analyzing attractive markets, brainstorming business ideas, problems/tips on expanding, what makes a successful entrepreneur, raising money from investors. Those are just some things off the top of my head, I'm sure a lot of you can think of many others. Basically what I'm getting at is that I want to push the boundaries of what people feel comfortable discussing. The way I got better at poker was by responding to and analyzing situations I didn't really understand. I was wrong a lot but I learned a ton and I think the same can happen here.




I'll probably add some things to this thread as I think of them but I'll post this for now so people can start discussing it, commenting on it and telling me I'm a jackass. Feel free to post any opinions on the things I've written, your own goals for this forum or reasons you think I'm being an idiot.

[Evan]

A note about the link rule...


There is a ton that you can talk/ask about without linking sites. In fact, I think that will do a good job of forcing people to make better threads. Was anyone around when bisonbison killed the hand converter for a week? This was back in the days when there was only one. Basically it stopped people from making mindless posts where they just played a hand, dumped it in the converter and then posted the parsed read out. It made people post only situations they (1) really wanted to thoroughly discuss (2) had spent time thinking about.

I see this very much the same way.

[Shoe]

Good points... However, I think it is much harder to describe a website than it is to describe a hand in poker. Sometimes you just need the visual that goes along with it. If the topic is web design, I think it would be good if we can post examples of what is good or bad site design .

I also agree that people should not be posting their links as an "easy way out", and should definitely concentrate on making their posts here as valuable as possible.

My gut reaction to this was that I'm done with this forum, but you make some good points and i'm willing to give it a wait and see approach now and see how and where it goes.

I definitely agree that a lot of our topics seemed to focus on the "micro-limits" if you will, and we need to learn how to move up the stakes. However, most of us in this are basically begineers and it is going to take us awhile before we become the experts that can generate the high quality content you are seeking. We are learning and gaining experience, and I think you will see that overtime, the quality of this forum will improve on its own, as we as a community learn more about money making and other business decisions (because lets face it, most of us came here for poker, and are now trying to veer out into new territory, and we want to discuss it here as opposed to being forced to find a new community).

[Evan]

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My gut reaction to this was that I'm done with this forum, but you make some good points and i'm willing to give it a wait and see approach now and see how and where it goes.

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Thanks, seriously. I know it's not easy to have someone just come in and say "hey we're changing things and here's how it's gonna be." That being said, I wouldn't do it if I didn't genuinely believe I could help. Also, I hope you can tell that I want this to be an open discussion and in no way plan to make this a dictatorship (except on the links issue).


There's a couple important things in your post that I want to touch on.

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I think it is much harder to describe a website than it is to describe a hand in poker.

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Absolutely, so we're going to have to get creative. I really want to emphasize that the goal is the IMPROVE the forum, not kill it. I want you guys to PM me so we can figure out ways to get across effective questions without breaking rules set by the people that run the site. Obviously this is going to drive traffic down initially, but I don't believe that simple post/day stats are the way to judge how successful a forum is. I think in the long term this will really make things better.

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I think it would be good if we can post examples of what is good or bad site design .

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I absolutely agree and I've already started thinking about ways to do that and still conform to the rules. I also think the group can give some great input on this topic.


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most of us in this are basically begineers and it is going to take us awhile before we become the experts that can generate the high quality content you are seeking

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Fair enough. A lot of my faith in my plan comes from empirical evidence. When I started posting on 2+2 about 2 1/2 years ago I was playing small stakes limit. There was a big group of us posting in that area that had all joined the site in a 6 month-ish range. We all started as novices together and out of that group came some phenomenal learning and truly awesome players. Putting yourself in a position where you are struggling just to tread water (keep up with complicated discussion) is the best way to learn in my experience. I learned most of what I know about business and finance the same way and I tell everyone that that asks how to learn those things.

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I think you will see that overtime, the quality of this forum will improve on its own

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Maybe, but I think I can accelerate that process. I'm interested in trying and I've ben given the chance by Mat.

[Shoe]

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I think you will see that overtime, the quality of this forum will improve on its own

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Maybe, but I think I can accelerate that process. I'm interested in trying and I've ben given the chance by Mat.

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Any help you can provide will definitely be appreciated. Here's hoping for the best! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Evan]

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I think you will see that overtime, the quality of this forum will improve on its own

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Maybe, but I think I can accelerate that process. I'm interested in trying and I've ben given the chance by Mat.

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Any help you can provide will definitely be appreciated. Here's hoping for the best! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Thanks for the support. I've got some ideas for what I think could be interesting threads. I might post one tonight if I get some more time to think about it, otherwise look out for something tomorrow.

It's going to take some time to iron out the way to do this and to get everyone on board, but I do honestly believe we are heading in a more productive direction.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Evan,
Do you have your own website? Also, could you be less vague on this "creative" stuff? Seriously, without a fully functional website to peruse, I don't know how anyone could make a post that would offer the same insightful responses without being a total PITA. I'll give it a shot, but I honestly don't think this is possible. "Eliminating the hand convertor" is in no way analagous to not being able to eliminating the ability to link.

Basically, you may be able to be able to create something that is the best option without links, but I don't believe there is anything you could do the make the forum better than it could be with them.

[Evan]

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Evan,
Do you have your own website? Also, could you be less vague on this "creative" stuff? Seriously, without a fully functional website to peruse, I don't know how anyone could make a post that would offer the same insight without being a total PITA. I'll give it a shot, but I honestly don't think this is possible. "Eliminating the hand convertor" is in no way analagous to not being able to look at a many pages of a website.

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Yes I have a website.

When I said "get more creative" I was trying to find something nicer than "stop being lazy and making low content posts about your blogroll or what color scheme looks the best with the Kubrick layout in Wordpress." This includes more complicated topics as well as breaking down the parts of a website/business that are really relevant to what you're trying to learn. For example, this thread works just as well without the link to the site. There's nothing I can't understand about html, php or advertising coupons by not being able to see the site he originally linked.

The point I'm getting at, which seems to be totally lost on this forum for some reason, is that there are things you should be focusing on beyond what you see on the website. The forum is called "money making and business" so I assume that's what you guys want to talk about. If that's not the case...well I guess we'll find out because everyone will stop posting in this forum and Mat will get a ton of PM's about how much I suck. Honestly though, why would you come to this forum if you weren't interested in more complex topics?

Now on the other hand, if you wanted a forum called adsense/internet marketing/more adsense you may well need website links. I wouldn't be that interested in that forum though. I don't think most of you would either if you had a better option. That's what I want to make happen.

[DonkeyKongSr]

First off, that thread blows and we know it. The poker shirt bed is a better example of a recent thread that needs to be seen to properly understand the question at hand.

Second, the look of a website and layout has a TON to do with the making money with internet business.

Third, a large part of the people using this forum seem to be people with adsense and affiliate businesses, so just because you don't want that doesn't mean we don't want that.

I come to this forum because I want to talk internet business with poker players. If I wanted to talk internet business with internet businessmen, I could definitely go elsewhere. It's the 2+2 POV that I'm interested in and I'm not even working on poker related websites.

[Evan]

I could write 5 pages about this. But why don't I just begin at the end with the real kicker. This is 2+2's rule. End of story. You can fight all you want I guess, but I think I've been pretty clear about that rule.

Now, I think that can lead to an improved forum. If you're not interested in what I think is an improvement then I'm not really sure what to say. It's probably worth writing Mat a strongly-worded PM voicing your displeasure with me as a mod. More pragmatically, there might just be a chance that 2+2 isn't hosting the discussion forum you are looking for. There are lots of things I use 2+2 as a resource for, but I also read many other websites because this isn't a catch-all. If what you're looking for is internet marketing with lots of links to people's sites from the point of view of 2+2ers I guess I can't help you.

If you're interested in entrepreneurial discussion from 2+2ers I might have an excellent product in store.

Obviously I cannot make you like the way I do things. I don't intend to try. I do intent to make my best effort to improve this forum as long as the people running the show decide to let me. Arguing about a rule that's not even in my control just seems like a real waste of everyone's time though.