I learn by screwing up (a lesson shared)

[Gregatron]

I have $26.30 at a non-Party, not PA site $25nl table. The table is soft and loose. Big blind is a loose, slightly aggressive and not very savy player, but has not done anything outrageous yet. He has miniraise preflop a few times, allowing me to overlimp with small pockers. He has me covered by a few cents.

I limp 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG, MP ($14 stack) calls, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
POT: $.85

BB bets .25, I raise $1.1, MP folds, BB calls.

POT is now $2.1 (after rake)

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet $1.8, BB checkraises $3.6.
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This is where I think I made a mistake, and I would like to hear thoughts on the subject.
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Okay, check it: I have decided that I am willing to lose my stack on this hand. If he has a better hand, then that is just tough. This is a reasonable thought I think, and I don't think many of you will disagree.

So given that I am willing to get stacked here, I should assume I'm ahead and try to milk BB out of as much of his stack as I can.

So I push. (Yuck.)

My thoughts: I should have bet less. Pushing is only likely to get called by a strong hand. Whereas if I raise a smaller amount (even a miniraise here, followed by a healthy river bet) I am likely to get a call from more marginal hands. In short, my EV is better with smaller bets, taking his money more incrementally.

If I had this hand to play all over again, here is how I would do it:

After his checkraise of $3.6, I would mini-reraise $7.2. If he 4 bets any amount, THEN I push. If he just calls, this would leave the pot at around $14.2 after rake. If he checks the river, I will pot it, and then the rest of my stack will go in if the action gets back to me.

[beavens]

i push his turn minraise.

[Gregatron]

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i push his turn minraise.

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That is what I did. The topic of my post what why I thought that was the wrong play.

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
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i push his turn minraise.

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That is what I did. The topic of my post what why I thought that was the wrong play.

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it just seems like the obvious move to make regardless.

[Grunch]

I think pushing the miraise is the right play. The opponent's minraise is an indication of a strong hand, not a weak hand. It's likely that a hand that strong will call any bet you are able to make, given stacks.

[Pokey]

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If I had this hand to play all over again, here is how I would do it:

After his checkraise of $3.6, I would mini-reraise $7.2.


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I actually hate this play: it's a nasty middle-ground between building a pot and laying a trap. You not only tip your hand (is villain really going to think you're three-betting without a decent hand??) but you still keep the pot small enough that all-in on the river isn't likely without help. I'd say your best choices are either push the turn or call, planning to raise-push his river bet. Which of these two lines is best depends on the opponent: against an aggressive adversary, I'd take the more passive "smooth-call turn, raise-push river" line. Against a passive opponent, I'd just push the turn.

Don't take a middle-of-the-road line; it's likely to backfire on you. Badly.

[QuentinCompson]

I agree that you are much more likely to get his money if you play the hand more slowly. If he has outs against you, he doesn't have many, unless he has 7s9s or 9sJs. If he has this, he is almost always seeing the river at 25NL. It is much more likely that he has a weaker, made hand (considering his turn action).

I prefer a raise to 9 or 10 to punish the potential draws and keep the worse, made hands around that are fishing for quads or a better boat (if they don't still think that they are good). The call opens up a potential river bluff and almost gives villain odds to call for the rest of his stack with a worse hand when he checks and you pot it.

In short, I am not a huge fan of pushing the turn minraise. This allows a certain range of hands to play perfectly by folding, when you may be able to coax them in if you do not push.

[Gregatron]

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The opponent's minraise is an indication of a strong hand, not a weak hand.

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I agree. That is why I pushed. I guess my point is I don't think I lose anything by going slower here. Plus, given my read on this guy, I am not ruling out something like AT. He is capable of laying this down to a push (I think). He will not lay down a minireraise.

My though process on the turn initially was, "I want to bleed this guy, and hope he hits a flush or something on the river." When he CR'd I stopped thinking and said, "someone's getting stacked!"

[Gregatron]

[ QUOTE ]

I actually hate this play: it's a nasty middle-ground between building a pot and laying a trap. You not only tip your hand (is villain really going to think you're three-betting without a decent hand??) but you still keep the pot small enough that all-in on the river isn't likely without help. I'd say your best choices are either push the turn or call, planning to raise-push his river bet. Which of these two lines is best depends on the opponent: against an aggressive adversary, I'd take the more passive "smooth-call turn, raise-push river" line. Against a passive opponent, I'd just push the turn.


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I appreciate this well thought out response.

But this:

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Don't take a middle-of-the-road line; it's likely to backfire on you. Badly.

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I don't understand at all. Backfire how? If I get stacked I get stacked. If I lose this hand, I'm getting stacked -- that's all there is to it.

EDIT: I think your proposal to call the turn, pop (push) the river might be the best line given my read on this guy.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
But this:

[ QUOTE ]

Don't take a middle-of-the-road line; it's likely to backfire on you. Badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand at all. Backfire how? If I get stacked I get stacked. If I lose this hand, I'm getting stacked -- that's all there is to it.


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True, but what you do with a modest three-bet is set yourself up for a worst-case scenario: if you're ahead, you WON'T get paid, but if you're behind, you WILL get stacked. You give away a great deal of information without making villain pay for it. By letting him know where he stands, he can play much more effectively against you with hands like a stray 8: you tell him he's behind and you also let him know he's getting your stack if he hits. He can play fit-or-fold on the river. If you just push, he's calling anyways, and you get ALL the money out of trips, rather than just part of it. Also, pushing the turn punishes combo draws severely, whereas a minraise lets them escape with much of their stack intact on most rivers.

Get all the money in on the turn while he's still got potential; you'll get more money out of the losing hands that way. Don't give drawing hands a chance to escape on the river, especially if YOU can't escape no matter what happens.