Math question about pot odds in poker....

[All in Che]

ok its very simple concept but many people are confusing me:

in texas holdem game I have As7s
flop Js 3d 9s (ok I have a nut flush draw)

ok so out the 47 unseen cards in the deck I have excatly 9 cards 9 outs that will make my flush (I know the 3s can make a fullhouse but for simplicty I will include it)

so the pot on the flop is: $60

I have to call $10 on the flop for the next card so (I have 6 to 1 pot odds & my odds to make my hand are 2 to 1 on the flop) so its a profitable call right??

now on the turn a 8h comes so now the pot is: $70
I have to call $30 for the river card (so my pot odds are 2.3 to 1 or 2 to 1 and now my hand odds are 4 to 1 to make the flush on the river) so now it is incorrect to call because its not profitable, hand odds > pot odds which is no good right??

This is the right math correct?

Thank You

[Nielsio]

David Sklanksy - The Theory of Poker


End of thread

[Splendour]

Getting a book is a good idea until then read this 2+2 thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post10605476

This should help too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]:
http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/13913

[eof]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to call $10 on the flop for the next card so (I have 6 to 1 pot odds & my odds to make my hand are 2 to 1 on the flop) so its a profitable call right??

[/ QUOTE ]


This is only true if you got to see the turn AND river for that 10 dollars. you are 2 to 1 to make your hand by the river, but you have to call a bet again on the turn, so you don't get to use those odds. you are actually getting 7-1 (60 in the pot plus his 10) to call flop which is plenty good

your math is off again, because if the pot was 60 and he bet 10 and you called, the pot would now be 80. if he bets 30 into the pot of 80, you are going to win 110 (80+30), making your odds 11-3, which is still enough to call.

[All in Che]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to call $10 on the flop for the next card so (I have 6 to 1 pot odds & my odds to make my hand are 2 to 1 on the flop) so its a profitable call right??

[/ QUOTE ]


This is only true if you got to see the turn AND river for that 10 dollars. you are 2 to 1 to make your hand by the river, but you have to call a bet again on the turn, so you don't get to use those odds. you are actually getting 7-1 (60 in the pot plus his 10) to call flop which is plenty good

your math is off again, because if the pot was 60 and he bet 10 and you called, the pot would now be 80. if he bets 30 into the pot of 80, you are going to win 110 (80+30), making your odds 11-3, which is still enough to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok something dosn't make sense hear if the pot is $110 and I call for $30 more aren't the pot odds 3.6 to 1 or 4 to 1 not 11 to 3?

and if those are the pot odds then its a bad call for the river all I will do is break even.

[All in Che]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to call $10 on the flop for the next card so (I have 6 to 1 pot odds & my odds to make my hand are 2 to 1 on the flop) so its a profitable call right??

[/ QUOTE ]


This is only true if you got to see the turn AND river for that 10 dollars. you are 2 to 1 to make your hand by the river, but you have to call a bet again on the turn, so you don't get to use those odds. you are actually getting 7-1 (60 in the pot plus his 10) to call flop which is plenty good

your math is off again, because if the pot was 60 and he bet 10 and you called, the pot would now be 80. if he bets 30 into the pot of 80, you are going to win 110 (80+30), making your odds 11-3, which is still enough to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok hold on my odds of making my flush T+R are 2 to 1 but since I will have to call another bet on Turn then what are my odds of making my flush one hand at a time?
Basically my odds get worse after the turn right?

so to make this simple the pot is $60 one guy bets $10 (pot=$70) and I call $10 (7 to 1 pot odds) on the flop at this point what are my flush draw odds since I am doing this one hand a time? not together

[Lestat]

No. You're not figuring this correctly....

If the pot is $60 AFTER your opponent bets $10, then yes... Your immediate pot odds are 6 to 1. However, if the pot is $60 and now he bets $10, your pot odds are 7 to 1.

If your opponent bets $30 on the turn, your pot odds will either be 3.3 to 1, or 3.7 to 1 (either way, you're getting better than 2.3 or 2 to 1).

But you also have to take into account other variables.

While you might not be getting the exact right "price" to call a turn bet, this isn't your only consideration. You need to factor in how much you can win if you were to hit your flush on the river. If your opponent is a bad player who is deep stacked and will pay off a rather large bet, you don't need correct odds on the turn. Your implied odds will do.

Lastly, you need to take into account that an ace might be good, or even that A7 might be the best hand if your opponent is bluffing with a flush draw of his own.

A final consideration is any fold equity a bet by you might have. When you add all this up, you will usually find that the right play is to play your hand strongly on the flop. Check-call, or call-call, is not the way I'd normally play this hand. Of course, much depends on the pre-flop action and how your opponent plays.

[hitch1978]

[ QUOTE ]
No. You're not figuring this correctly....

If the pot is $60 AFTER your opponent bets $10, then yes... Your immediate pot odds are 6 to 1. However, if the pot is $60 and now he bets $10, your pot odds are 7 to 1.

If your opponent bets $30 on the turn, your pot odds will either be 3.3 to 1, or 3.7 to 1 (either way, you're getting better than 2.3 or 2 to 1).

But you also have to take into account other variables.

While you might not be getting the exact right "price" to call a turn bet, this isn't your only consideration. You need to factor in how much you can win if you were to hit your flush on the river. If your opponent is a bad player who is deep stacked and will pay off a rather large bet, you don't need correct odds on the turn. Your implied odds will do.

Lastly, you need to take into account that an ace might be good, or even that A7 might be the best hand if your opponent is bluffing with a flush draw of his own.

A final consideration is any fold equity a bet by you might have. When you add all this up, you will usually find that the right play is to play your hand strongly on the flop. Check-call, or call-call, is not the way I'd normally play this hand. Of course, much depends on the pre-flop action and how your opponent plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only one thing to add to this, if you raise on the flop, what are the chances it will be checked to you on the turn? If you're opponent is likely to check to you on the turn if you raise to, say, $30, then that's 2 more cards for $30, not the $10 + $? turn bet by your opponent.

Raising here also gives you a greater chance of being paid off should you hit, but that's really OT.

You really should get 'Theory of Poker' by David Sklansky. The work is both thourough and correct, and will answer every question of this manner you could need it to. There are depths to the math side that it looks like you are about to hit upon, Implied odds will be your next step, and an understanding of them is really critical to make these type of decisions correctly.

Good luck.

[All in Che]

ok I trying to understand if I am doing this right:
(nut flush draw)

for me to call a $5 bet from the button on
the flop how much must be in the pot already?

then

for me to call $10 from the button on the turn how much must be in the pot already?

(assuming I am playing $5/10 limit holdem)

please just tell me the correct amount on the pot then I will see what you mean.

[hitch1978]

It depends what you think your opponent will do on subsequent streets.

If you call the flop, knowing your opponent will check the turn, you need less in the pot as you are paying to see 2 cards not only the one if your opponent bet's the turn. Do you see?

It also depends on what your opponent will do if you make your hand. If you make your flush will he call a turn and river bet? If so then you don't need the pot to be as big as if he will check/fold if the third flush card hits the board.

Like I said, pot odds are important, but only as a starting step to working out your IMPLIED odds.