When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?

[Toonces]

Two scenarios here:

Scenario 1: You have bet the flop and turn and were called by one player. On the river, you grab a stack of chips to bluff the river, and as soon as you grab them and lift them above your stack, your opponent throws in his chips to call.

Scenario 2: Similar flop and turn. On the river, you count out your chips (alongside your stack) and put them in your hand. While you are looking at your opponent to see if he's likely to call you, he says, "I call you. I've got a pair of aces."

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In neither of these cases have I been ruled that I have made a bet, and I've check-folded both times. But I also don't want to seem dishonest or an angle-shooter at the table. Am I ethically supposed to follow through with the bet that I would have made if my opponent didn't already call? Is it considered an angle shoot? Would you give up the bet if it's to a fish that you don't want to be upset with you?

[punkass]

In both cases, you have been saved a bet by overzealous opponent. No angleshoot by you.

[AngusThermopyle]

As described, no angle.

[Mygtar]

To me it seems more like a bad habit. I try to never make any check, bet, raise, muck jesture prior to my turn. I don't like giving folks information.

That being said I would not consider these incidents "angle shooting" just bad habits. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Peace,
Mygtar

[PantsOnFire]

It is very common to pull out chips on the river and riffle them while you are thinking about how the hand went down and whether a bet (for value or bluff as need be) is now appropriate. And you can certainly look at your opponent while doing this. And if there is a bet line, it is abundantly clear you can play hockey with your chips behind the bet line if you want.

In reality, and I don't play limit a lot, at a 1/2 limit game and somebody is mulling over putting $4 into a $40 pot, of course the guy on the other side of the table is going to fire his $4 call and probably ahead of your bet sometimes as you pointed out.

I don't see anything wrong here. It all sounds pretty innocuous. Perhaps you are lucky to have saved a BB, perhaps villain fired a call into the pot with air hoping you would do just that. I don't know.

What I do know is that in NL people don't do this for obvious reasons.

[stealyourface]

let the call without you betting and then announce raise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[RR]

These can be ruled bets. In places that use forward motion these sound like bets to me; I would really want to be there to get a good description of what happened.

[beta1607]

I've been wondering the same thing. This happens all the time at Commerce.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If they blatantly jump the gun then it's not an angle shoot. It's not a bet till it's over the line or forward motion past your cards. ** Against such predictable and easy opponents you get extra value on your hands because you sometimes save river bets.

** if you're consistently getting bets ready, sliding them forward but stopping just shy of the line, this is angle shooting. This tactic is commonly found in no limit games. A player makes a move like they're going all-in but stops just shy of the line hoping to get their opponent to act or even flip their cards early.

[pariah8]

Not angle shooting if they act out of turn. That's their problem for not having the patience/intelligence to wait for you to bet.