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  #21  
Old 07-11-2007, 02:52 PM
Pokamon4e Pokamon4e is offline
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Default Re: NLHE:TAP \"Concepts\" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

Read concepts No. 24 (page 262) and No. 29 )starting on page 267).

Apart from that I can hardly see a reason to ever laugh at somebody seriously asking a question in a forum.
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  #22  
Old 07-11-2007, 03:30 PM
jackaaron jackaaron is offline
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Default Re: NLHE:TAP \"Concepts\" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

[ QUOTE ]
Read concepts No. 24 (page 262) and No. 29 )starting on page 267).

Apart from that I can hardly see a reason to ever laugh at somebody seriously asking a question in a forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love if that's all someone has ever done to me on this forum...lol.

Get over it. Just because I lmao to his min-raising pre-flop suggestion doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to ever doing it. I just think it's silly is all. If you're going to raise to build the pot, you might as well make it more than 2xbb (at least 2.5xbb, and yes, the .5 adds up), or if you're going to raise and hope you gain information by your opponents calling, you should certainly raise more than 2xbb (you're getting called with a wide range, so you gain no real information).
He mentioned building the pot for when you hit. Why not make it 2.5-4xbb? 2xbb raises pre-flop just seem senseless in no limit. This isn't new.
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  #23  
Old 07-11-2007, 03:40 PM
godofPOPOV godofPOPOV is offline
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Default Re: NLHE:TAP \"Concepts\" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

read THE POKER TOURNAMENT FORMULA from Full Tilt and Chris Ferguson suggests even min raising from EP.

with the theory behind it that if you raise from EP you dont have to raise as much because people should interpret you have strength if you are raising with that many people left to act.

also you can min raise to change up your raise sizes.
maybe you min raise to get action with AA or KK or QQ when your on the button and only a couple people are left to act.

maybe you dont want hands to fold but you want a bigger pot.

maybe your changing up your play


i think there are many valid reasons for min raising.
and 2.5xBB is hardly anything but a min raise, so advocating that and thinking 2xBB is foolish is ridiculous.


so laugh away at it but there are many valid reasons for raising 2xBB.

(FYI)
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  #24  
Old 07-11-2007, 03:56 PM
jackaaron jackaaron is offline
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Default Re: NLHE:TAP \"Concepts\" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

[ QUOTE ]
read THE POKER TOURNAMENT FORMULA from Full Tilt and Chris Ferguson suggests even min raising from EP.

with the theory behind it that if you raise from EP you dont have to raise as much because people should interpret you have strength if you are raising with that many people left to act.

also you can min raise to change up your raise sizes.
maybe you min raise to get action with AA or KK or QQ when your on the button and only a couple people are left to act.

maybe you dont want hands to fold but you want a bigger pot.

maybe your changing up your play


i think there are many valid reasons for min raising.
and 2.5xBB is hardly anything but a min raise, so advocating that and thinking 2xBB is foolish is ridiculous.


so laugh away at it but there are many valid reasons for raising 2xBB.

(FYI)

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree about the 2.5. It adds up if you're small balling the crap out of people. And, at many weak/tight tables, it does just that.

Going by what you said, I would much rather min raise with trash because the BB is calling with a really wide range, and check/folding when he doesn't hit.

I guess I've just stacked so many bad players who do this, that I can't believe someone would advocate it. I would never call their standard raises, and stacked them, but when they make it this cheap, I most certainly will get involved.
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  #25  
Old 07-11-2007, 04:57 PM
Pokamon4e Pokamon4e is offline
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Default Re: NLHE:TAP \"Concepts\" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

[ QUOTE ]
I would love if that's all someone has ever done to me on this forum...lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I rarely write in this forum. But I think I'm over it now. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I just think it's silly is all. If you're going to raise to build the pot, you might as well make it more than 2xbb (at least 2.5xbb, and yes, the .5 adds up), or if you're going to raise and hope you gain information by your opponents calling, you should certainly raise more than 2xbb (you're getting called with a wide range, so you gain no real information).
He mentioned building the pot for when you hit. Why not make it 2.5-4xbb? 2xbb raises pre-flop just seem senseless in no limit. This isn't new.

[/ QUOTE ]

To finally contribute something to the topic: I don't usually min-raise either, but I play short-handed most of the time. Sometimes I like to min-raise on heads-up tables for deception purposes, but that's about all.

Personally I think that a 3bb raise sweetens the pot, too. But in addition to that you get more fold equity preflop and a bigger pot to take down with a c-bet.
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  #26  
Old 07-11-2007, 05:04 PM
CasinoR7 CasinoR7 is offline
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Posts: 193
Default Re: NLHE:TAP \"Concepts\" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

[ QUOTE ]
]I agree, but I still think the OP's question is perfectly reasonable, as Sklansky and Miller advocate min-raising with "big-pot hands" to raise the stakes.

No reason to laugh at him at all (I know you didn't).

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not against minraises if you use them sparingly. There should be a reason for every bet you make and a minraise is a good decision if there is a good reason to do it. It is also true that betting pot is not always right, but it is a less expensive error than never betting more than the minimum.

People who are constantly minraising are definitely puting themselves in a vulnarable position. The other players have extra tools in their box, which are making the correct bet sizes when they need to protect their hand, betting enough for value and having only to pay a cheap price for with their drawing hands.

But I think that if it is possible to make a minraise according to the rules of the game, there could be places where it is good strategy to make such a bet. We should be thinking about this topic. I am definitely not laughing at it. (which you were right that I wasn't doing)
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  #27  
Old 07-11-2007, 05:43 PM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: NLHE:TAP \"Concepts\" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

I have experimented with minraising suited connectors and pocket pairs over limpers with the intention of doubling the pot size- obviously I'll only do this with deeper stacks, as there's no need to build the pot if everyone is playing short.

The point being that if you think that the times you hit your hand and extract maximum value will end up with chips left in the effective stacks, it is better for you if the hand plays twice as big- minraisng accomplishes this very cheaply. Very rarely would you need the pot to play 3 times as big so there's no need to raise any more than the minimum.

Obviously this is exploitable if you only do this with small suited connectors and pocket pairs and never do it with big pairs (and I never would), however

a) if you are at a table with a gazillion limpers seeing a lot of flops, there's a good chance you are at a table where most of the players aren't paying enough attention to exploit you.

b) so many bad players love to minraise with big pairs that it disguises your hand somewhat (I actually had a guy "lol" at me after I showed down 89s after minraising from the button over a bunch of limpers- yes I won a big pot with my straight).

I have not decided if I like this strategy and my sample size is too small to say if it is successful (since the opportunity comes up rarely and you hit your hand so seldom when it does), but I've played around with it.
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