I shouldn't even have to ask this probably but...

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like it would be exactly the same, except in my line I can make the +EV fold instead of making your -EV call (in essence).

[/ QUOTE ]
well, a fold can never be +EV. a fold is 0 EV. however if your options are a -EV call or a 0 EV fold, clearly folding is the superior play.
:P

also, i agree about the AT hand, but i dont think im folding ever. i call and get it in on the turn if i have to do.

KQ looks fine, overcall is an option. if you had AKd you must overcall there, though.

also, someone may have said villain has 66 always in hand 2 when they bet 3bet? LOL. snap call, of course.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]
For reasons stated by several above I think TP+FD is the best big draw to play passively, within the context of wanting an overall metagame where you often play big draws fast.

I don't hate these hands though. Thing is, even though it's hard to hate these hands, because basically any action but folding is going to be +EV on the flop, the difference between the best line and another profitable line when you flop great can be as significant as the difference between a profitable and unprofitable line in other situations. This seems obvious but it can be too easy to dismiss thinking about hands like these with "it doesn't matter what you do," when it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that first sentence. It probably makes it harder to play against me if I do play passive on some big hands.

The thinking that it doesn't matter what you do here originates from threads sort of like this one where maybe 60% of the people say just call and 40% of the people say I played them fine. Everybody has such a strong opinion on the issue and plus the fact that you know there are good players who are on either side of the argument. From reading this thread you could say that Aejones thinks my play was good and TWP thinks another option is much better. Since they are both winning players either way must be fine. That being said you bring up a good point about how I should not just be on autopilot here especially when playing for stacks.

So what is the standard play here in these cases? Are they different for hand 1 vs. hand 2? It sounds like it is debateable. I think I was playing these hands too much like tournaments hands where we are not as deep.

[ahnuld]

I kinda agree with TWP in passive games but in all honesty people take villans' line with flush draws all the time at 5/10 and we kill those hands.

[wpr101]

TWP, if you used a range in your examples instead of saying how villian has two pair it would be a lot clearer. I don't get why you are completely discounting a hand like 6c7c or JcQc in the first hand. Both hands have a straight draw out there which has to be taken into account atleast a tiny % of the time. Also, like Aejones showed people are never going to take your arguments seriously if your saying stuff like the standard play is very poor.

One of these days I just need to sit down with pen and paper, look at these hands, put them on a range, and calculate the EVs. However, I don't think the EV difference would be enormous.

[pofigistka]

LOL ty TWP- wish I'd read your words of wisdom before, I kind of worked it out myself but cost me a lot of $ learning that it's not always good to play draws suyperfast. You're right of course- bad players will still pay you off if you hit flush after just calling and appear to be ahead in the hands above. You're so right, when I played this way i thought it was totally standard, it's pleasing my game has developed. I wonder what the next mistake I a am making that i consider standard and discover is a leak will be..

[Yeti]

i probably just call the flop in hand 1.

hand 2 is fine. lol @ the thought of folding when a ton of villains range is 78dd 98dd 97dd qjdd axdd etc which you have croaked.

[TheWorstPlayer]

bobbo, 100% agree i'm never folding hand 1. hand 2, I might push the turn, too, depending on the action (say SB checks, and BB bets a blank - this might be a good time to push) but I don't want to get it in on the flop...

[Triumph36]

these hands are very standard. there may be an argument for calling flop in hand 1 - it's basically a min-raise - but raising seems fine too.

[Alexos]

TWP- Your assumption that villain never folds when/if we hit our flush on the turn is something I do not understand. Isn't this a massive scare card for anyone holding TPTK, two pr, set...??? That's mainly the reason I play these draws fast, because Im pretty sure he will stack off anyways with worse hands/draws on flop, but also it allows us to get more money in quick and not have to commit on turn where we have less equity.

Is my judgement biased/wrong?

Edit: This comment is mainly for hand 2. Hand 1 I understand calling flop

[Praetor]

I would call flop #1 but I like #2