A Hand Concerning Perceived Ranges

[0evg0]

I don't post many hands, but thought this was kind of weird but with some common elements.

1am $109, 2nd orbit in, Villain is a total random

I'd opened in MP once and all folded, and I called a weird 5xbb utg raise from utg1 and c/folded some 789sss flop HU or something -- so nothing at all has happened of note

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t2110)
BB (t2620)
UTG (t2560)
UTG+1 (t2970)
MP1 (t2890)
MP2 (t3300)
MP3 (t4660)
CO (t2830)
Hero (t2900)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, SB calls t50, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t180) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, SB folds, BB calls t120.

Turn: (t420) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t260</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t700</font>, Hero calls t440.

River: (t1820) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1740</font>, Hero calls t640.

Final Pot: t5300

hit me

[Dave D]

Fold to check/raise on the turn. You're behind a set, and crubs. Its hard when you hit the card that gave you the gutshot, but he has to have one of these. I mean is he really c/ring with air? Maybe a 6, maybe I guess.

I dont really understand betting 1100 when villian only has 640 behind. Either push to maximize FE, or check the river. Unless you're trying to level him or something (ie you're trying to say to him I want you to push back at me). If you're really determined to call the turn, check/call a small bet on the river.

Oh yeah fold PF. But not really cuz I think it's good to mix it up etc.

[0evg0]

Dave,

I didn't reply again in the other thread, but you really have some very firm leaks that are likely keeping you from becoming anything more than a solid, if unspectacular player -- meaning you're probably only amongst the top 2% of any given random $109 field, instead of the top 1% [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

The most glaring example is this:

[ QUOTE ]
Either push to maximize FE, or check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote shows that you have not put any thought into a) Villain's hand range, or b) our perceived hand range. If we want to maximize FE, that means we are now bluffing with a straight. This is very rare, and this is most certainly not a spot that it is correct.

Do you follow?

Again, sorry for the condescending tone -- I guess it's just my nature, I certainly don't mean anything personal by it.

[hERESY]

I wouldn't bet 1100 on the river because he didn't hit that ten and he never had a six. Are you betting so he calls with like 88/99/JJ? I don't get it :x

if he checked a flush (low) then you obviously [censored] up huge

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I didn't reply again in the other thread, but you really have some very firm leaks that are likely keeping you from becoming anything more than a solid, if unspectacular player -- meaning you're probably only amongst the top 2% of any given random $109 field, instead of the top 1% [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

The most glaring example is this:

[ QUOTE ]
Either push to maximize FE, or check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote shows that you have not put any thought into a) Villain's hand range, or b) our perceived hand range. If we want to maximize FE, that means we are now bluffing with a straight. This is very rare, and this is most certainly not a spot that it is correct.

Do you follow?

Again, sorry for the condescending tone -- I guess it's just my nature, I certainly don't mean anything personal by it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its early in a donkament, and you have no reads on him. Honestly, his range is pretty close to any two. I assume donk unless proven otherwise.

That said, you seemed to imply that you thought there was a good chance your hand was no good on that turn or river. If thats the case, you want to maximize FE right?

If you think you have the best hand, you should be 3bet pushing the turn. He check/raised you, he's calling a push. I think the same applies for the river, it's the old "if theres a 100% chance he calls 100, and a 75% chance he calls 200, bet 200" logic. Except here, I think if you think he calls 1100 95% of the time, he calls a push like 90 or something. It just doesn't make sense to bet 1100 here, unless you think he's so donkey that he wont see you're only leaving yourself 600 or something. Which I guess is possible.

I still think you're beat on the turn, but whatever.

[Clayton]

ur drawing dead on the turn 70%+ of the time imo

and i just fold pre cuz im a nit like that

[adanthar]

this is the type of hand where nothing is specifically 'oh this is terrible' (except PF) but what it adds up to is 'you got owned hardcore'.

[JackOfSpeed]

[ QUOTE ]
ur drawing dead on the turn 70%+ of the time imo

and i just fold pre cuz im a nit like that

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, 5 of clubs is usually live. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[0evg0]

I'm still at a loss as to why preflop is bad.

I mean, obv this is at the bottom of my range, but what's your opening range in position against two random donkamenteurs 100xbb deep?

[TheNewf]

I'm pretty sure you greatly overrate your ability to "outplay people postflop in position" and overcome terrible hand selection. A large part of your edge over the random donkamentuer in a 109 FO should definitely be superior hand selection, which you've now thrown away.