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View Poll Results: Who should I replace Ronnie Brown with?
DeAngelo Williams 5 41.67%
Brandon Jacobs 4 33.33%
Samkon Gado 0 0%
Sammy Morris 3 25.00%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:12 AM
Bone_Daddy Bone_Daddy is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

I used a bad example, point was simple.

Throw out calling range with big pairs, they call your hopeing for miricle (which many sites do deliever).

I would rather have two live cards (89) than ace rag against a better ace.

Better example. (Just heads up, interested in PS calcs)
89 vs Ace 7 (i.e. split high cards)42%
89 vs. ace 10 (2 overs KQ/AQ)37%
Ace rag (assume 2 - 6) vs better ace (used ace 7 for calc)23%
ace rag vs. 2 KQ (2 overs)57%

I'm not calling a jam with 2 overs like kq (without more info), but I will with ace k/q, so have better odds, around 40% with 89, than a dominated ace 23%.

Keep jamming those weak aces. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:44 PM
Nichlemn Nichlemn is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

[ QUOTE ]

Throw out calling range with big pairs, they call your hopeing for miricle (which many sites do deliever).


[/ QUOTE ]

You can't just arbitrarily ignore some hands that exist in a calling range. A2o has 28.65% equity against KK, 98o has 17.895%. This can't be ignored because both numbers are low - A2 clearly has greater equity against a hand that will show up when you push sometimes and will call.
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:56 PM
JamieO JamieO is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

[ QUOTE ]
depends on what position you're pushing from and what their calling ranges are (if you have any reads).

[/ QUOTE ]
qft

In early position with an M of 3-5 i will push 89o, but fold a-rag. In middle and late position i will push both.
If my M<3 then i will push both early.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:00 PM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

[ QUOTE ]

I would rather have two live cards (89) than ace rag against a better ace.


[/ QUOTE ]
I would rather have money than a good-looking hand. A7 not only does better when called by most calling ranges, it also gets called less frequently since it blocks your opponent from holding many calling hands.

If you want to claim 98o is better, find situations and plausible calling ranges such that 98o is better. If you actually take the time to do the calculations right, you may come around to what just about everyone else is saying, and the conclusions of a past article, "The Myth of Suited Connectors," in the 2+2 Internet Magazine. You are asserting the myth is right contrary to the calculations. Come up with relevant calculations which support your side, or give up.

[ QUOTE ]
interested in PS calcs

[/ QUOTE ]
Then go to http://www.pokerstove.com and download it. It is free.

[ QUOTE ]

Ace rag (assume 2 - 6) vs better ace (used ace 7 for calc)23%

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not close to correct. Domination is generally less of a factor when the kickers are low, as there is a greater chance the kickers do not play. The range a2o-a6o wins 36% against A7s, and 38% against A7o. It wins 25% against AKs and 27% against AKo.

Your other figures are also wrong, although not as dramatically.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not calling a jam with 2 overs like kq (without more info)


[/ QUOTE ]
There are many situations in which it is clearly right to call pushes with KQ, unless you have reads. I have often gotten called by KQ.
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:57 PM
Albert Moulton Albert Moulton is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

A-rag is much better than 89o in an all-in situation blind.

Check out the sections in No Limit Hold 'Em Theory and Practice on Sklansky-Chubukov numbers, and calling all-ins preflop. You'll see that A-rag fairs a lot better than 89o in these situations.
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  #16  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:25 PM
GeeBeeQED GeeBeeQED is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

In a situation where It's growing likely I'll face one or more calls, my M is very low (lets say 3-4 or &lt, I'm out of the money, It's folded to me, I like 98. As decribed, your often (and properly) going to get called by any decent stack with any pair, any ace, any k-t or two face and better. Realize I'm probably making the move here with any two cards however, I'm glad to have a probable non-dominated hand that also has two overs to 1/2 or more of the likely calling pairs. You've also got 2 cards to a straight which would add greatly to your hopes against over pairs. The question is complex and leads to endless if-then scenarios. Without M's the question cannot be answered very accurately. In my presumed scenario (fits as possible with your OP) I'm figuring to be called by every ace. It seems like there are too many dominated hands if you assume every ace calls. Maybe I am a victim of worrying too much about domination?

Dave
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:34 AM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

[ QUOTE ]
In a situation where It's growing likely I'll face one or more calls, my M is very low (lets say 3-4 or &lt, I'm out of the money, It's folded to me, I like 98. As decribed, your often (and properly) going to get called by any decent stack with any pair, any ace, any k-t or two face and better.


[/ QUOTE ]
Against that range, 98o wins 37.3% when called.
Against that range, A7o wins 44.4% when called.
A7o is called less frequently.

I do not understand why people are going on and on about how much they like having two live cards. Why is that more important than money?

[ QUOTE ]

Without M's the question cannot be answered very accurately.


[/ QUOTE ]
This might be meaningful if you could point to some realistic M, and some resulting calling distribution, so that 98o would do better than A7o. Otherwise, it looks like you are stubbornly refusing to give up a faulty argument even after it has been shown to be wrong.

There are arguments for 98o. It does better than A7o in some multiway pots. However, for that to be relevant you have to expect to be called by multiple players a significant amount of the time, which means picking up the blinds is quite unlikely, and pushing with substandard hands is likely to be a bad idea.

By the way, there are much better strategies than pushing with any two in early position when your M is 3. It's a copout by people who don't want to be bothered by figuring out how to play well with a short stack, despite the fact that being short-stacked is a normal part of tournament poker, and that stack could easily represent more than a buy-in of equity.
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:20 AM
TWCReborn TWCReborn is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

"Kill Everyone" mentions calling hands vs. pushing hands. 89s will do better against overpairs than Ax will if the overpair is between A and x obviously. 89 vs and underpair is a coinflip as Ax vs an underpair is also a coinflip as long as x is greater than the pair.

If someone is likely to call more with pairs than high cards, I might slightly adjust from what would be suggested from HOH or Sklansky rankings. Ax being called also has the danger of being called by a higher Ax (only slightly less likely because even though holding an ace halves the number of combos from 6 to 3, in my opinion people are not going to lay down Ax in a high blind situation).

All-in-all, the initial question of 89s vs. Ax is not an easy one. What is x? Also pay structure, relative stack sizes, future play (how far you are from the blinds), your CSI (or how many orbits you can survive) and the calling ranges of other players set to act after you all matter. For this type of analysis, I like sit-n-go wizard a lot. They use the independent chip model to calculate the best equity play in push/fold calculations. The weaknesses in their analyses are 1.) They prune branches when there are 4 or more players in a hand, 2.) You cannot use anything other than Sklansky rankings for ranges, 3.) They do not consider future play (they do if you turn this option on, but it is not reliable IMO).
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  #19  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:05 AM
Gonso Gonso is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

I highly recommend the jam/fold tables in MoP as well as the SNGPT program for those of you struggling here.
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  #20  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:02 AM
Bone_Daddy Bone_Daddy is offline
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Default Re: A rag or 98o?

[ QUOTE ]
Come up with relevant calculations which support your side, or give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are a couple of points.
First of all, too many nits play tight and get blinded away waiting for big pairs, until their M is less than 5 and they jam the first ace-x they see. So, its better equity to be more aggressive with ATC and jam and prey no one calls. That being said, why wait for ace Ė x to jam, as the % increase is de minimus.
Letís take the two jamming ranges, and compare them to 2 calling ranges.
A2-a7 vs. pairs 5s or better, and ANY combo of face cards (loose). This is a likely calling range for a larger (not massive) stack.
A7o-A2o vs. 55+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo 40.693%
98s, 87s, 76s, 98o, 87o, 76o is 33.863%

So ace rag is 7% better.

But letís look at a more reasonable calling range, assume stacks are more even. Drop all face cards other than pairs 55+ and Ace Ė 10. Without more info, canít assume jt-kq is standard calling ranges late in a tournament.
98s, 87s, 76s, 98o, 87o, 76o drops to 31.999%
BUT A2 Ė A7 drop to 27.967%, a 14% fall off

We are splitting hairs and can run a million scenarios, but your sanctimonious opinion that ace rag is a much better doesnít pass muster.
My point in case, donít be scared and wait to jam a dominated hand, where there is fold equity out there with ATC that are not as dominated, and from a percentage standpoint, a push.
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