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#832
10-27-2007, 06:20 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Your description is not correct. The 'sum total' of the accusation is not at all that there was just one hand that he folded on the flop. Maybe you have not seen the original forum posts. Please take a look at them. They have also been discussed here a number of times. But to spell it out they talked about just the same exploit with seeing the hole cards that we have seen later. [/ QUOTE ] The only evidence we have that Seif could see the hole cards is just one random accusation on the internet from 1.5 years ago. No HH, no corroboration, nothing more than that. [/ QUOTE ] If it was just one random accusation, there would not be a long description of this made by ICfishies, and several posts by stuckinpgh about the same incident where he confirms the description as accurate and also states that " I no longer play site owners hu for big stakes.". There is no evidence, but that does not mean that the accusation should be described incorrectly. What is so interesting with it is that it is completely consistent with the exploit that we know actually happened. This makes the accusation very credible, and the warning against playing site-owners heads-up serious indeed. [/ QUOTE ] You're mixing up the number of conversations about the incident with the number of accusations. There was just one incident in which the accusation was later retracted. The wording of the retraction (however interesting) doesn't matter. stuckinpgh has retracted the accusation and has not changed his mind on this. There is no hand history.... no proof. This is therefore, a dead end. [/ QUOTE ] Have you actually read stucknpgh's posts? He never retracted the version of events that ICFishies described on internettexasholdem back in Feb. 2006. He confirmed them. Furthermore, in the last public comment he made on the Seif incident, he said he was not sure whether he was cheated. He never said he definitely was not. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post12133066 I've linked to that post twice in these threads but ikestoys and others apparently have never read them, because they keep acting like it was just one weird hand that some random dude described a year and a half ago. If the word of players like stuckinpgh and icfishies holds any weight (I don't know that it does, but Dan Druff spoke positively about both these guys) then it is definitely not unreasonable to be suspicious of Seif. Having said all this, I understand that we apparently aren't gonna get any HHs, so continuing to push it seems pointless. But I'm tired of people pretending the accusations have no merit when they haven't bothered to read the testimony of the alleged victim and continue to misrepresent what he said. 
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#833
10-27-2007, 06:43 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
I think the spookiest thing about the Seif accusations is a) how neatly they meshed with what we know about how this cheating occurred and b) that it happened a year and half before all this came to light.
Seif may be innocent. But if so, those events are a pretty big coincidence. I still tend to think Seif really did open-fold, which means he almost certainly could see hole cards. But it's something like 70/30 in my mind. Other weird possibilities is maybe someone was playing on Seif's account. Or the accusers had that done to them by say, STEAMROLLER, and decided to accuse Seif instead just because he's such an ass. Seems like there has to be some kernel of truth to the story, or origin of the story coming from somewhere. And again, no one thinks Seif is cheating every time he plays. Obviously.
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#835
10-27-2007, 07:21 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
But to spell it out they talked about just the same exploit with seeing the hole cards that we have seen later. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that someone - with no credible evidence - previously made a claim about Absolute Poker is not proved because subsequently someone with credible evidence did make a claim about Absolute.
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#836
10-27-2007, 07:22 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
At best I think the donators are getting kickbacks or something. At worst the whole thing is a giant scam. [/ QUOTE ] I really feel quite strongly that people should not make claims like this without some sort of evidence to support them.
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#837
10-27-2007, 07:24 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
Second, the Korean AP guy suggests to Mark that AP could release say Marks previous two months HH's to allay our fears-Mark says that would disadvantage him. If he is a 1mil loser, i dont think this would hold up, Mark might get better because OBV the way he is playing now isnt working. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think Mark (or any reasonable person, rather) would agree to this if they can avoid it. The amount of hand analysis feedback Mark would receive would pale into insignificance compared to the advantage his opponents would gain. [ QUOTE ] Can someone graph Marks earnings on AP from the time Stuckinpigh made his allegations until now? And his earnings going back the same amount of time pre Stuck? [/ QUOTE ] It would genuinely surprise me if that much collated data was available on Mark. [ QUOTE ] It just seems like in the convo whe the AP Korea guy suggests releasing any HH's, mark says (a little too quickly for my tase BTW) that's not what the online community wants-kinda like in The Wizard of Oz where you hear the wizard say "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain". [/ QUOTE ] This is just plain rediculous.
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#838
10-27-2007, 07:24 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
The last two months of HH's will not show anything. If he's cheating, he's not doing it on his account. [/ QUOTE ] But the only reason he is even embroiled in this is because the accusation was that he was cheating on his own account!
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#839
10-27-2007, 07:29 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] At best I think the donators are getting kickbacks or something. At worst the whole thing is a giant scam. [/ QUOTE ] I really feel quite strongly that people should not make claims like this without some sort of evidence to support them. [/ QUOTE ] I think it's legitimate to start a discussion on a message board with an opinion/impression. That's how this whole AP investigation started in the first place. It's not like we're the NY Times here and have to make sure we have nothing but irrefutable facts before we proceed at all. Why do known corrupt poker enities (AP, CEO Poker Tour) pick small Las Vegas-based children's charities with cutesy but incredibly unfinished and unprofessional-looking websites? Sure as hell seems at least worth looking into to me.
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#840
10-27-2007, 07:30 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
Why do people keep saying 'there is no evidence' re: Mark Seif cheating? [/ QUOTE ] I've tried to keep saying that there is no credible evidence. While, technically, a blog post by someone one and a half years ago is evidence, I dont think it is credible. [ QUOTE ] There is PLENTY of evidence. Enough to convince a great many experienced poker players already. What we don't have - yet - is proof in the form of incriminating HH. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think there is any poker player who plays 100/200 limit, or 10/20 no limit or above on a regular basis that would claim to be "convinced" that Mark cheated. [ QUOTE ] There is not, as yet, that HH evidence. Right now, that's essentially the only difference between Seif's incident and Potripper. [/ QUOTE ] That's a pretty [censored] big difference. The absence of evidence in Mark's case should not give people the right to create evidence by filling in the gaps. [ QUOTE ] The accusation, made at the time, was that Seif was cheating SOMEHOW while playing on AP. But, to prove it without the HH was impossible - and Seif sure as hell didn't have to release his HH at the time because the very idea of a 'God-mode' was utterly ridiculous, according to Seif's buddies at AP. Hold that thought. [/ QUOTE ] Stuckingph could provide a HH; AP could provide a HH; an observer could provide an AP. So far, none have been able to. So, until the proof arrives, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. [ QUOTE ] 18 months later, it turns out that the method suspected at the time ('God-mode') IS IN FACT REAL. Who had access to it? Why, AP management! And - wow! - Mark Seif is part of AP management... [/ QUOTE ] I am very confident that Mark Seif is not part of AP management. [ QUOTE ] So what are we left with for Seif's defence now? Can't say God-mode doesn't exist... Can't say Seif isn't in bed with AP... Can't say he didn't say maybe POTRIPPER just got lucky before the HH proved otherwise... Aha! Got it! [/ QUOTE ] How the hell is he supposed to defend himself against an accusation that 18months ago he allegedly open folded a hand, and allegedly could see hole cards? What would you suggest he do in his situation? [ QUOTE ] (BTW, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is all it takes. If I were on a jury, I think I know how I'd vote.) [/ QUOTE ] Thank god I'm never going to be charged with a crime and have you on my jury. The suggestion that the stuff against Mark could hold up in a Western court of law is absurd. It's not even close to reality.
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