(razz) bet/fold river?

RustyBrooks · #1 10-23-2007, 08:10 PM

I think betting the river is mandatory here, since the player with A9 will definitely call if he makes it, and the other guy will call with any 8.

If the guy showing 83 raises, should I still be calling? He's a total unknown, just sat down and has never played razz at these stakes in the last 3 months, so I know nothing about him. The A9 guy kind of surprised me, he doesn't seem the type to call down here.

Razz ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.15 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in

4th Street - (2.80 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (5.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (8.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___???
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___raises

Total pot: (12.90 BB - $12.90)

JavaKing · #2 10-23-2007, 08:19 PM

Call River...Berate Player

WhiteWolf · #3 10-23-2007, 09:15 PM

Pot's way to big, and your hand is too good vs his possible holdings, to even consider folding - especially against a complete unknown.

ChipsAhoya · #4 10-23-2007, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pot's way to big, and your hand is too good vs his possible holdings, to even consider folding - especially against a complete unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus he has an 8 showing, so it's not like he could be raising a 7 or something so there's a better than normal chance you're not beat here; he could even have like 8732A. Who knows, I called what ended up being a river bluff raise in a big pot today. Can't fold here...

-ChipsAhoya

Praxising · #5 10-23-2007, 10:05 PM

If he wins it serves you right for not raising 3rd. (Now you have to write a hundred times: I will always raise on 3rd unless slow-playing...

I'd reraise this at light speed. I can't imagine folding. At these stakes he'd think an 87 was good. Or he's a NLHE refugee who thinks raising the river will get you to fold. He might think you have a brick in the hole and are bluffing. Seems to me the least likely scenario is him having a better hand. And if he has an 85 or 84, well, there ya go. Then you know something about him.

RustyBrooks · #6 10-23-2007, 10:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he wins it serves you right for not raising 3rd. (Now you have to write a hundred times: I will always raise on 3rd unless slow-playing...

I'd reraise this at light speed. I can't imagine folding. At these stakes he'd think an 87 was good. Or he's a NLHE refugee who thinks raising the river will get you to fold. He might think you have a brick in the hole and are bluffing. Seems to me the least likely scenario is him having a better hand. And if he has an 85 or 84, well, there ya go. Then you know something about him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think re-raising here is awful without clear evidence that this player would raise me with an 87.

I don't think raising 3rd is mandatory or even a great idea.

The really awful thing about this hand is that it convinced me to make a terrible calldown against this player in a later hand.

RustyBrooks · #7 10-23-2007, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Plus he has an 8 showing, so it's not like he could be raising a 7 or something

[/ QUOTE ]

To me this is the worst part... if I give him credit for being average for these stakes (i.e. not great but not retarded) then if he's calling drawing to an 8 it should probably be a pretty good one. I'd be a *little* more likely to think he was bluff raising if he had like A6 showing, because it's more likely that I'd fold a made 8 in that situation. I would think, given his up cards, that he expects me to call.

Praxising · #8 10-23-2007, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The really awful thing about this hand is that it convinced me to make a terrible calldown against this player in a later hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
How did it do that? If you don't mind telling us, what happened here and on that later hand?

RustyBrooks · #9 10-23-2007, 10:32 PM

Well, first of all, it turns out that this player played tight and solid for most of the rest of the next hour. I'm not sure what to make of his play in this hand.

His play in this hand didn't DIRECTLY effect me except that a few hands later a big hand came up where by 5th I had a draw to a 6 and he was showing something like 54A. I called down and called the river with a T because I'd decided he was semi-retarded. He had a wheel. Calling 6th was even worse because he was showing 54A3 at that point. Calling the river was just plain retarded on my part... all he needed was ONE CARD UNDER J to beat me.

Which coincidentally means I know what it's like now to play a hand as badly as that guy in that other thread, Tran or whatever.

Praxising · #10 10-23-2007, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Which coincidentally means I know what it's like now to play a hand as badly as that guy in that other thread, Tran or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ] Good, means I'm not the only one. We all do it, Rusty.

I've seeen this kind of play before, where some guy comes in and sets up the table to believe he is a LAGGY moron and then grabs a big pot. They have what I call "Superstar Player Syndrome." They are all about manipulating things and then boring thier long-suffering gfs to death with what brilliant players they are in excruciating detail.