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Old 11-16-2007, 03:38 PM
Somnius Somnius is offline
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Default Law and Math Combo?

I posted a few weeks ago with my situation and got some great guidance. I have a new question for you well-informed, reasonable individuals.

Quick recap, I'm 24 now, I graduated 2006 with a Psych degree, took time off and applied while starting an internet company. Got full scholarships to my choice schools in Florida and California...living in Canadian weather so long kinda gets to you. However my corp was doing well (mixture of websites and now doing quite well in poker) so I took more time off, and now, I want to keep riding out what I'm doing until about 27, I picked that age because 3 more years will be more then enough time to really see how my future in internet entrepreneurship/poker may look. Also, if I want to go to law school, I can be out of there by 30, which is still a fine age to begin...I think/hope, maybe younger is better I don't know.

Here's the thing, I will be taking this time to work on my business, however, I miss school.....a lot....a lot a lot. I've always liked math, not just studying it, but there are a lot of careers that look pretty dam interesting too, like statistical arbitrage, behavioral finance, and a host of others that combine quantitative sciences with my psych.

Basically, learning about what Bill Chen and Brandon Adams do is pretty interesting, of course actually working in the field is not the same as reading about it so I simply want to satisfy my curiosity.

So, I think, I want to study a math field at U of T this september. Some sort of econ/stats combination, or, well I haven't decided exactly yet...but, I'm now basically just confused. Questions going through my mind 24/7 as I live with my neurotic self.

Would it be better to just keep establishing the business/playing poker for 2 years and head straight to law school, get out by 28 and start the career, when established, I probably wouldn't care about my interest in math, if it is really there...?

To help answer that, looking at the finances is really important.

Last month was my first really established business/poker month. I made 5k, about 3k from sites, 2k from poker. This month, I'm on par to make over 6k, 3k from sites, over 3k from poker...and this is just 50NL, so I'd really like to see what happens if I move up.


If I do the math, then decide to go to law school, or work in the math field and do law school part time and get the degree...is it foolish to think that more doors would be open for me....?

Do math fields give a crap about you having a law degree, and more importantly, do legal jobs give a crap that I can work with market derivatives etc...?

I'd assume they'd have the cream of the crop for each if needed, not a jack of all trades position....am I just basically "wasting time" by doing this then if I go into law, the math studies would have been basically just a potential addition to my working with my personal finances and not utilized in my future law career?

Finally, growing up I wanted to be a "hotshot" lawyer as early as possible, raise capitol blah blah, of course when we grow up, the dreams might not change but we realize we have other interests and it's not just as simple as go as quick as possible...

However, not sure if it's my conditioning or actually grounded in reason...but I can't help but feel a little depressed about the fact that if I take this entrepreneurship/math path until 27, and then graduate law school at 30...I will be around young twenty somethings, and firms may look more kindly on them...or I will have to start at a similar salary to them at 30...of course if all goes well I'll have capitol saved up from my business/poker...

Still though, if the math won't really add anything potentially to my salary as a lawyer through some sort of interdisciplinary position that pays more...then well that kinda stinks.

Basically, lots of questions, confused as hell...please help...thanks for any thoughts/kindness.

Regards,
Somnius
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2007, 04:35 PM
JMAnon JMAnon is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

As a successful big-firm lawyer, I can assure you that math skills are very valuable among attroneys, especially because they are scarce. Having a math degree will not help get you in the door, because most attorneys understimate the value having strong math skills, but once you are in, ths skills will pay huge dividends. A litigator will be able to use math skills to more effectively predict settlement values and to be able to work with and to effectively impeach expert witnesses. On the corporate side, a sound knowledge of math will help you communicate with the business people at the clients.

Also, being older when you start your law career is a big advantage, IMO. You will be more mature and better able to relate to the senior associates and partners with whom you are working.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:34 PM
Splendour Splendour is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

There are so many subspecialties of the law you also need to consider if the type of law you will be handling is going to fall under federal rules/jurisdictions/courts or state courts/rules/jurisdictions. For example if you go into family law it will fall under the laws of the state you are practicing in so you need to know the civil procedure and state laws of the state you are practicing in which might impact your decision on where you go to law school. Whereas another type of law like Intellectual Property falls under the federal rules and courts with some international thrown in. Also intellectual property usually requires a B.S. degree in one of the sciences to be a patent attorney.

If you can narrow down what types of law you're interested in maybe the local bar association would know more or check with the law schools themselves. There may even be books that give you a better idea what to expect. Check the career section of Barnes & Noble. That way you can do some research and fine tune in advance.

A corporate attorney once told me he had to hire on almost in an apprentice like capacity (though he was a junior attorney) for 3 years after law school just to learn the ropes to practice corporate law. There is an awful lot of specific and practical knowledge you have to learn in addition to the general stuff to practice law, give advice and draw up legal documents.

Also some types of lawyers go to court all the time while others stay in their offices a lot. It just depends on the nature of the law you are practicing. Some lawyers are hunters which are your litigators, criminal law attorneys and some are gatherers such as your estate planning attorneys.

Tax law would probably be another area where your math skills would come in handy and I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to have them for bankruptcy or real estate law either.

If you do decide to go you might want to study up on how to brief cases before you get there. There'll be enough reading the first year that anything that gives you a jump will be a big help.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:56 PM
Somnius Somnius is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

Thanks for the in-depth replies. I'll look into what was mentioned.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:40 PM
pvn pvn is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

There are some law firms who specialize in highly technical work. A math degree would definitely help you get your foot in the door there.

EG: http://www.welshkatz.com/

Most of the attorneys there have degrees in hard sciences or engineering. I just picked that one since I know a lawyer there, but there are others.

In general, I think the advantages of higher math in law are vastly underrated. This is probably because most people think math = arithmetic.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:21 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

Maths guys can be very coveted in organizational consulting and so can law guys (basically building structures for companies, and skilled law or math people often excel at this) So if you're handy at marketing yourself you could probably land an awesome job in that arena (you would have to sell the fact that you aren't educated in HR or crap like that).

I'd take a few calls to companies doing business in what careers you are interested in and ask around. When you specialize like this you want to know that you are specializing for what you want to do and that it will be worth your while.
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:28 PM
Somnius Somnius is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

Awesome, thanks a lot guys. It's pretty clear that the more disciplines you want to integrate, the more leg-work you're gonna have to do to finding professions that cater to them.

I wonder though if in firms like that and possessions such as those, you have to master in both disciplines?

I ask the above mainly because, based on my limited knowledge of IP Law, it is generally expected that competitive applicants have masters degrees in the technical areas, and mere undergrad isn't enough...?!

Edit: Nevermind, most of that firm's employees only have bachelor's in their technical discipline.
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:33 PM
Somnius Somnius is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

[ QUOTE ]
There are some law firms who specialize in highly technical work. A math degree would definitely help you get your foot in the door there.

EG: http://www.welshkatz.com/

Most of the attorneys there have degrees in hard sciences or engineering. I just picked that one since I know a lawyer there, but there are others.

In general, I think the advantages of higher math in law are vastly underrated. This is probably because most people think math = arithmetic.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does your contact do exactly and how does he like it? Probably better as a pm but I know some people don't like being bothered with them.
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  #9  
Old 11-18-2007, 04:43 PM
oe39 oe39 is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

why be a lawyer if you have some money? you should talk to some lawyers...
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  #10  
Old 11-18-2007, 06:21 PM
Somnius Somnius is offline
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Default Re: Law and Math Combo?

More for future prospects. Well in other words, I do want a career, but, one that still allows for a more entrepreneurial lifestyle, which I think a quantitative one can provide. A potential law degree upgrade if I do go into math would be for more specialized prospects/endeavours...which may or not be dehibilitating to innovation, no idea, therein lies the main confusion.

Definately getting the idea over the past little while that law is not what it's made out to be..and is pretty monotonous work...but of course there are quite a few outlier positions I think that can be rewarding/different/allow for creativity, and I would assume, the more unique and specialized you are, the more doors open to you in that specturm of the legal discipline.

That is basically what I am after, if the above statement is in fact true. If not, then a quantitative career combining math and psych would probably of greater satisfaction to me...although, one can't ignore the potential worth of a law degree itself in personal ventures...I think.

There was an article in the ABA journal the other month actually, criticizing the billable hour system of the profession, but taking it one step further and describing the many ways this traditional setup of the system may entangle in our lifetime. If that were the case now, boy what an easier decision this might be...
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