Renewable Energy

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in a class i'm taking this quarter, the professor went through the calculations to show that ALL of america's transportation system (cars/trucks/motorcycles/semi's/planes/etc) could be powered by 120,000 windmills.

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Assuming your professor's calculations are correct, 120,000 windmills produces enough power for all of USA's transportation only when you neglect the energy cost of transporting the energy. There is considerable energy lost just pumping it through powerlines, so a central power station will almost never be the solution.

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Well, maybe the prof included that or maybe you need a few more windmills, but central power generation is the status quo. In Southern California we get power from as far away as coal plants in Utah.

[DosXX]

Its less about getting people to do good because they should be concerned, and more about finding the proper incentives to make people choose economically. If gas was 3.50/gallon when I bought my SUV 5 years ago, I would have a more fuel efficient car now. I would fully support a gas tax (although I would hate seeing the prices fill up every week) as an incentive to spur renewable sources of energy. Oil will always be around, cheap oil will not. Lets get a head start now so it doesn't hit our society like a ton of bricks.

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Well, maybe the prof included that or maybe you need a few more windmills, but central power generation is the status quo. In Southern California we get power from as far away as coal plants in Utah.

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That doesn't mean that pumping electricity in from Utah is efficient, just that it is the best available solution.

I doubt the professor knows the length of electrical wiring that comprises the entire power grid of the US, so I would guess that those figures haven't been included in his calculations.

I could be wrong about how much energy is lost in the transfer, of course.

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I would fully support a gas tax

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Gas is already heavily taxed in a lot of areas.

[Yads]

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That's true. The recent surge (such as it is) in PV could not be happening without net metering. Most systems are installed on properties that are still connected to the grid. When you use more power than you produce with your PV panels you draw power from the grid. When you produce more than you use, you supply power to the grid and your meter turns backwards. Some systems have separate meters.

Solar PV obviously can not be the only solution for power since it does not produce at night. On a utility level pumping water in conjunction with hydroelectric power is a fairly efficient way to store energy, but at this point I'm just involved in systems that provide power for use on site, not for sale.*

In off-grid settings PV with battery back-up and sometimes with wind power is economically viable even though it is more expensive because bringing in electric power or transporting fuel is even more expensive. That is a very small part of the market though.

*Net metering is sorta for sale, but they just take it off your bill. None of the net metering deals I know about allow you to sell more than you use over the course of a year. (in the US I mean - In Germany - the world leader in Solar - they allow you to sell back w/e you produce)

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Yeah I really like Germany's initiative with solar power. I watched Nova a little while back and they had a program on solar power. Very interesting.

[bobman0330]

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That's true. The recent surge (such as it is) in PV could not be happening without net metering. Most systems are installed on properties that are still connected to the grid. When you use more power than you produce with your PV panels you draw power from the grid. When you produce more than you use, you supply power to the grid and your meter turns backwards. Some systems have separate meters.

Solar PV obviously can not be the only solution for power since it does not produce at night. On a utility level pumping water in conjunction with hydroelectric power is a fairly efficient way to store energy, but at this point I'm just involved in systems that provide power for use on site, not for sale.*

In off-grid settings PV with battery back-up and sometimes with wind power is economically viable even though it is more expensive because bringing in electric power or transporting fuel is even more expensive. That is a very small part of the market though.

*Net metering is sorta for sale, but they just take it off your bill. None of the net metering deals I know about allow you to sell more than you use over the course of a year. (in the US I mean - In Germany - the world leader in Solar - they allow you to sell back w/e you produce)

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Yeah I really like Germany's initiative with solar power. I watched Nova a little while back and they had a program on solar power. Very interesting.

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Yeah, what's not to like about a government intervention that diverts a huge portion of the world's PV resources to sunny, sunny Germany? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[ElSapo]

It's really not as simple as simple calculations make it seem.

The biggest problems with solar and wind farms are economics, intermittent power, and the fact that no one wants them. All of which ultimately relate back to economics.

In a nutshell, you get power when the sun shines and when the wind blows. Power generators contract their power out under long-term contracts, largely, which means not supplying what they promised carries significant penalties. Failing to supply that intermittent renewable power can get expensive in a hurry.

I've seen interesting stats that a greater reliance on solar and wind will actually increase our peak usage of natural gas, because when it comes to quick response times NG is the choice fuel.

The you have the problem that building 10,000 acres of wind farms is great in the middle of nowehere, but also missing is thousands of miles of transmission line to carry the power.

And the fact that local municipalities fight to keep out wind farms, or LNG import terminals, or really anything that disturbs the status quo. While the certification of the infrastructure mostly resides at the federal level, and the feds well certificate just about anything, local governments usually control land use permits and can delaye the process significantly.

While I love a good renewable-v-big-fossil-fuel debate as much as anyone, the intricacies involved really make broad debates pointless.

The real solutions will probably come by way of diversified enegry portfolios and an extremely gradual shift towards alternative sources. Carbon sequestration, the implementation of a cap and trade market for carbon credits, a global LNG market and greater on-site generation for industrial and large commercial consumers.

And blah blah blah.

[Wynton]

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I’m not saying that we should build a huge 10,000 mile mirror in the dessert in Nevada. All though the government does own an absurd amount of land in Nevada, upwards of over 90%. And I am not saying that we need to turn the Dakotas in to wind farms either.

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Actually, I like both these ideas. Just leave some space for Vegas in the middle of the huge mirror.

[ElSapo]

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I’m not saying that we should build a huge 10,000 mile mirror in the dessert in Nevada. All though the government does own an absurd amount of land in Nevada, upwards of over 90%. And I am not saying that we need to turn the Dakotas in to wind farms either.

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Actually, I like both these ideas. Just leave some space for Vegas in the middle of the huge mirror.

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Do you have any idea the number of birds that could be blinded by this gigantic mirror?

And while I'm not being serious, someone, somewhere, would be.

[JennPKRpro]

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I’m not saying that we should build a huge 10,000 mile mirror in the dessert in Nevada. All though the government does own an absurd amount of land in Nevada, upwards of over 90%. And I am not saying that we need to turn the Dakotas in to wind farms either.

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Actually, I like both these ideas. Just leave some space for Vegas in the middle of the huge mirror.

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Do you have any idea the number of birds that could be blinded by this gigantic mirror?

And while I'm not being serious, someone, somewhere, would be.

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Why not control the human population, then we wouldnt need such a mirror.