prove higher level thinking to me

[THREEPA1R]

The following hand occurred at at 2/5 NL Live cash game.
A small pot that I played before the hand I'm about to mention, I announced that I'm raising my button with 5 7 diamonds. People basically ignored me, and I luckily flopped huge. 7c 6d 3d. I got it all in with a smaller stack, and I made my straight and flush. 2 Hands later I had AK. Again I announced that I was going to raise with AK clubs. BB and Late limper called me. Flop was Ks 4d 4c rainbow. BB checked, and late limper bet. I stated that I'm supposed to raise here, and did so thinking he might have a KQ/KJ (He might flat call with AA, but because he limped pre-flop and I'm pretty sure he assumed I was telling the truth, he probably would've re-raised pre-flop thinking I'm a 9-1 dog). BB folds and limper calls. The turn was 7c he checks and I bet about 2/3 pot, he calls. The flat call on the turn set off an alarm in my head. River was supposed to be my death card, 3c for a final board of Ks 4d 4c 7c 3c. He led out for only about 20% of the pot, which usually would seem like a defensive bet, but if he had only K's up, why would be bet the river when I announced my clubs? Or, if he had a boat, why wouldn't he bet at least pot knowing I'd most likely call. (This might get confusing) But because he knew that I had the nut flush, and I knew that he knew that I had the nut flush, and because he knew that I'd just call if he threw out a big bet with a boat, I started thinking quads. Because he had such a strong hand that he wanted MAXIMUM profit, and the only way to do so, was to throw out a what he thought I would interpret as a defensive bet and get me to re-raise.

Well I lost the hand, and he had quads. I lost the minimum, but I dunno if this counts for what you wanted..

[jipster]

seriously..... you announced your hand preflop?

i wish we could speechplay in the UK!


Do you ever lie about your holdings?... and doesnt it make it difficult to c-bet when your opponent knows your holding?

[KinkyKid]

[ QUOTE ]
gonso: the reason i asked for a HH is because i feel like anyone can give a hypothetical example (as you did) but as i read posts in HSNL and such, i don't ever find myself thinking at such a level. nor do i see the discussion ever reach that level. every move thats made i can usually attribute to 2nd or 3rd level thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

People don't post the deeper level thinking much. Its so read dependent that players don't look for outside opinion. The times it is posted, a typical response is "you really need to have played a lot with xxxx to be able to comment." And then the hand gets pushed off the front page when no one really knows what to say. I'll look around for an example if I get time today.

[Zefa]

You: Ac 9c
Opponent: Ad 6h
Flop: Tc 6c 2d
Turn: 3c

Level 0: I have a flush draw...

Opponent checks, I bet the flop and opponent calls.
Level 1: My opponent probably has a flush draw or a pair or maybe slow playing a set...

Turn brings a 3c giving me a flush...Your level of thinking dictates the play that you will make.

Level 2: Opponent thinks I have a mid-pair or maybe Ace high. I should check.

Level 3: Opponent thinks I think that he had a flush draw and hit the turn if I check when the flush card comes. If my level 3 read is correct, then I can induce a bet from him on the river when he represents a flush by betting.

Level 4: Opponent might think that I think that he thinks that I have a mid pair or ace high if I check behind. He also thinks that I think that he has a weak hand. If he is thinking this way, he probably thinks that I'm trying to slowplay and trap him with a big hand and will therefore check fold the river. My best course of action is to make a bet on the turn to avoid an apparently obvious trick to make him think that I think that he thinks that I think he has a flush.

[PantsOnFire]

I believe one the key concepts of thinking on these levels is to try to stay exactly one level of thinking above your opponent.

With most of my games, low/mid stakes NL, I usually stay at level 2 thinking for unknown players or regular weak/Lagtards, etc. When I encounter an opponent who is apparently also thinking on level 2, I raise my play against him to level 3. The problem I have is identifying this type of player. I basically need to see him play many hands before I can make notes about his level of thinking.

I tried level 4 only a handful of times and ending getting the feeling that not only was it difficult, I was probably miscalculating the level of my opponent and thus didn't make the best play. Thus, I haven't used level 4 for a while and probably won't again in the near future either.

Level 4 and above is probably reserved for Ivey vs. Hanson, et al.

[Big Pink Monkey]

I agree with others that you aren't going to see hand histories for level 4 because you just don't get there in online play. People aren't together enough and aren't good enough for it to be of any use.

Even in a live game, it's probably pretty rare. Not only does it require good players who know each other well, but it requires the right situation. I'm pretty sure I've seen 4th level a number of times on High Stakes Poker.

[elindauer]

I agree, rarely used. Here's a hand I found particularly enjoyable in which, I suppose, you could say I used 4th level thinking. Did I make the best play? Well, maybe not, but that's beside the point. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Opponent is known to limp the button with big aces (limit hold 'em). I know this, but I don't think he knows I know this.

Opponent limps the button. I check the BB with AK. Now my plan was for the following to happen:

a) we flop an ace together
b) I think he has a big ace
c) I think he thinks I am weak, maybe a weak ace, maybe less
d) I think he thinks I think he is weak (because he limped the button)

now since he believes that I think he is weak, but he is actually strong, I expect him to give me a lot of action with, say AQ. In fact, I know he's strong, but I am stronger, so I am going to keep firing at him and be the one left smiling when I table my AK at the finish!

In reality, I flopped an ace, and we got 4.5 BB in postflop. Turns out he had Q6s... did my plan work? Um... kind of!

good luck.
eric

[THREEPA1R]

I'm not sure on the rules in Vegas, but in Atlantic City I don't really see much objection to someone talking about THEIR hand even in multi-way pots. As long as one person is playing one hand everything seems fair game. I don't know why Europe keeps everything dead silent while a hand is going on, it takes away much of the psychology of the game. What if you would be able to goad a call, or convince a laydown? Isn't that part of the game? Couldn't this contribute to higher level thinking? The higher the level of thinking, the less the cards REALLY matter right (since most of the time higher thinking comes from marginal situations where hands are similar in strength)..

[Addiction]

I've got the nuts. He knows I have the nuts. I know he knows I have the nuts. He knows I know he knows I have the nuts. I know he knows I know he know I have the nuts. etc... until he must not have the nuts. Call.

[Holdem_Up]

lol