Stupid spot I get myself into quite a bit

[Neko]

Initial raiser is 40/18 and pretty bad post flop. Button was unkown at the time.

Two questions:
1) Preflop ok or is smooth calling much better here?
2) Now that I raised pf, I have to bet the flop against most people don't I?

5/10 hand
Hero ($1508.30)
BB ($938)
UTG ($2472.40)
MP ($985)
CO ($1755)
Button ($983.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $35</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $35, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $150</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, Button calls $115.

Flop: ($345) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $255</font>

Final Pot: $345

[WordWhiz]

Yes, rr preflop against bad player. 150 maybe a tad much, I'd prefer 120 or so, but not a big deal. Flop c-bet is debatable. Lots of players, even bad ones, are loose raisers but somewhat tighter on calling big raises. If you cbet like 90% of the time, yeah, you have to give it a shot here and hope he has some crap like 88 or 65s that whiffed. If you often don't cbet even when you hit the flop, you can check here and see what he does.

[Neko]

yeah, this hand actually seems pretty boring now that I read it again in the light of day. I never know what makes an interesting hand.

[Nick C]

That flop is so horrible that I probably just check and give up (I mean, besides the hands that beat you, you're potentially giving money to hands like JT and XsXs if Button calls with the plan of betting if checked to on the turn).

On the bright side, there is some chance of folding out JJ and I guess maybe QJ or something, and a bet does at least make it harder for a hand like 99 to steal the pot from you. So the decision doesn't seem easy to me, but you are in an annoying spot where a bet is basically a bluff that will mostly just fold out worse hands.

[Neko]

The way I see the flop is, check call is obviously terrible, c/r is suicidal and check fold allows him to steal the pot with all kinds of garbage. Do people check behind here alot on this flop? Am I going to bet fold the turn if he checks behind on the flop?

Nick,
Yeah, my bet is basically a bluff but it is also a bet that prevents him from bluffing too so in that sense I'm happy to have him fold a worse hand and just win this big pot here.

When I bet, imo he has a very tough time continuing with JJ,KK,KQ and weak aces etc since my line is pretty strong on such a scary board. It's pretty tough for him to bluff raise with anything but a flush draw where he's not a big dog anyways and doesn't mind getting it in.

[Victor]

this is one of the sucky things about playing oop. my standard in these spots is to bet, even tho most better hands are calling and most worse hands are folding simply bc it protects me from being bluffed.

i think that situation outlines a fundamental difference between limit and nl in that betting to avoid being bluffed is far more common in nl.

the problem is that astute players who have played against me enough may have noticed that i would proly never bet this flop if i hit.

[MadScientist]

When you are oop with a marginal hand, picking up the pot is not bluffing. You may have the stronger range vs his range, but he HAS Position.
It's like in chess, where you have the stronger setup (say more pieces, like up a pawn), but he has the better position. You don't want to surrender the initiative here. Bet and pick it up against someone who can fold a better hand and charge draws.
If you had KK, the decision would be harder and I would check there some of the time.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
When you are oop with a marginal hand, picking up the pot is not bluffing. You may have the stronger range vs his range, but he HAS Position.
It's like in chess, where you have the stronger setup (say more pieces, like up a pawn), but he has the better position. You don't want to surrender the initiative here. Bet and pick it up against someone who can fold a better hand and charge draws.
If you had KK, the decision would be harder and I would check there some of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The situation is a little more complicated than what I'm about to say, since if we check, sometimes neither player will be willing to play chicken on that board and the hand will get to showdown, and the same is actually true after a bet and a call.

Nevertheless, since we're investing ~ a 3/4 pot bet in an effort to take it down immediately (with a bet that is some combination of a bluff and a protection bet), I think a key question is if we're going to get that immediate fold 3/7 of the time or not. The situation is complicated enough that the answer to this question doesn't prove betting is or isn't the best play, but it does seem like a good initial test.

[Dazarath]

If there was a good spot to C/F after 3-betting preflop, this would probably be one. As for PF, squeezing here is fine and go either way (I personally prefer a call). I think it's more image dependent. If you're a nit, then you're turning your TT into a bluff, whereas I think it's much better to call. But if you're LAG and you've been active, then you'd be squeezing more for value.

[bobhalford]

Is re-raising TT preflop after the raise has been called a standard play? Why? Seems to me it just makes a huge pot with a hand that's going to lose on the flop very often.