KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...

[sh58]

easy bet call. if you are not already ahead you have outs to improve. AK is the only crusher and you still have a few outs to split against that.

the pot is big, so winning it now is good. $35 is good followed up by a shove obv

[shpanko]

wtf? Stacking off here seems retarded, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we only worried about AK? 89/TT-QQ/QJ/JT etc are all major parts of these guys' ranges, especially the BB (will show up with TT+ a lot). Why do we want to get it in with (essentially) a bare OESD?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause sometimes we are actually ahead, and there's a bunch of money in the middle already so the pot odds aren't far off (see my post above) even vs. a set and even if no third party gets money in.

It's essentially a coinflip vs. 2 pair.

I mean, it's not a great spot, but it seems too weak to just give up here, when (like I said) there is often a ton of dead money in the pot.

As an example, this is perfectly fine for us:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3895658
pokenum -h kd kc - qs js - ts tc -- qc jd th
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Qc Jd Th
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Kd 305 33.78 582 64.45 16 1.77 0.344
Qs Js 150 16.61 737 81.62 16 1.77 0.172
Ts Tc 432 47.84 455 50.39 16 1.77 0.484

[shpanko]

good post pineapple, very good points. I guess I can concede on this. I was just feeling like when the money goes in we're going to always be up against 2pair+, but we're usually not up against AK I suppose.

I think the thing that bothers me the most (obv) is that we have 3 opponents and with the action I feel like we're almost always behind on this flop. I know there's a lot of money in the pot but it's still tough for me to accept that I have to bet/call the flop when I usually only have an OESD. But I'll concede that I think your post was right on.

[sh58]

[ QUOTE ]
good post pineapple, very good points. I guess I can concede on this. I was just feeling like when the money goes in we're going to always be up against 2pair+, but we're usually not up against AK I suppose.

I think the thing that bothers me the most (obv) is that we have 3 opponents and with the action I feel like we're almost always behind on this flop. I know there's a lot of money in the pot but it's still tough for me to accept that I have to bet/call the flop when I usually only have an OESD. But I'll concede that I think your post was right on.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you get called by 2 pair, you also have other outs besides the OESD, you have 2 set outs + 3 board pairing outs + runner runner board pair for a better 2 pair.

against 2 pair you have 14 outs or so
against a set you have 10 outs

[thac]

You guys seem to be forgetting that CO and BTN can have like 44 and 55 and not even be a part of the action.

That said, I like checking to the BB because I think he bets a lot of his range here, and if we can get a CO or BTN call, it puts a bit more money in the pot and we get better odds if we're behind, and then I'd crai.

BTN or CO will fold their weakish hands probably and unless BB has AK, we're in 'okay' shape given the amount of dead money in the pot.

[shpanko]

If there's a bet and a raise after we check we still gettin it in Thac?

[thac]

That'd be a bit different, but I don't think I fold, just because I think if CO or BTN raises, they can still have 2 pair or T9/KQ.

[CptnObvius]

fire for 30. this flop looks good but against 3 opponents u could easily be beaten here. good chance of 2pr. but you pretty much have to get it in and best way has to be betting right???

[Nicefingcatch]

Bet $40 and if raised your not folding.