Foresight and the Democratic Party

[Mickey Brausch]

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Arguing for a minimum wage is beyond retarded

[/ QUOTE ] Arguing without arguments is below retarded.

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...and shows you have virtually no comprehension of basic economics.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm doing OK in advanced, no worries.

[evil twin]

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Well, almost the whole of Europe has minimum wage legislated. The United Kingdom had its national MW passed in 1999 and the British economy is not doing too badly. Neither is the whole of Europe, come to think of it.

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Exactly. Each and every time a European country proposed introducing a minimum wage the right and particularly business owners happy to exploit working class families yelled that it would seriously damage the economy. What it actually damages is their ability to exploit people who have no choice other than take whatever job they can.

Each time the scare stories have utterly failed to happen, and on top of that the lowest paid working class has had the chance for a slightly better standard of living. The advantages to this are many, not least of which that people are more able to fend for themselves and are less likely to fall back on state support. They are happier and healthier and hence need healthcare support less often. The are better positioned to provide for their children the benefits of which should be entirely obvious.

There has been no disaster from the introduction of reasonable minimum working wages in Europe, despite the big business owners propaganda stating otherwise. We're not talking about giving workers $15 an hour here, just a reasonable lowest level working wage!

[kyleb]

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Well, almost the whole of Europe has minimum wage legislated. The United Kingdom had its national MW passed in 1999 and the British economy is not doing too badly. Neither is the whole of Europe, come to think of it.

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Unemployment numbers, pls tks.

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Contrary to myth, many European countries are better positioned for the future than the United States,

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Because...

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...with healthier economies and longer healthy life expectancies, greater math and science literacy, free or affordable education from preschool through college, universal health care, less poverty and inequality and more corporations combining social responsibility with world-class innovation.

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This is not necessarily true. Regardless, it is biased as sh1t.

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Among the world's 100 largest corporations in 2005, just 33 were U.S. companies while 48 were European. In 2002, 38 were U.S. companies and 36 were European.

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This is relevant how?

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CEO-worker pay gaps are much narrower at European companies than American. Americans work over 200 hours more a year on average than workers in other rich industrialized nations.

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Cool, more irrelevant statistics.

[kyleb]

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We're not talking about giving workers $15 an hour here, just a reasonable lowest level working wage!

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Why is it okay to institute a price floor for minimum wage workers but not a price ceiling for the rich?

[evil twin]

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Why is it okay to institute a price floor for minimum wage workers but not a price ceiling for the rich?

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A possible price ceiling on the rich has got nothing to do with the poor having access to a minimum wage. There are a number of solid humane arguments as to why we don't want workers and their families exploited for $1.50 an hour. The same arguments don't hold for why we should prevent people earning more than above some arbitrary number. Your question is entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

[bcubed72]

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She has fitmly stated she will immediatley raise the minimum wage, poof, there goes the economy.
Jimbo

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Well, if you look at ballot initiatives, minimum wage increases won EVERY referendum, usually by a 3:1 margin, so I hardly think it qualifies her as an extremist. This is typical right-wing scaremongering; every time an increase is proposed, they do their "chicken little" routine. Fact is,there was negligable increase in unemployment the LAST time the minimum wage was increased. I would like to point out that, adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage is LESS than the $0.25 original minmum wage when the FLSA was put into effect in the '30s.

Put it another way: you gotta pay one way or another. Suppose I was paid a wage that would not support my bare survival (i.e. food and shelter). I'd get public assistance, so you pay anyway. So you say, get rid of public assistance. Now I'm starving and the rent's due; I probably have to resort to crime to support myself; now my victims are paying. So you say, lock me up. Now society is REALLY paying to support me. However you slice it, you have to pay the poor one way or another. A sub-sustaining minimum wage is really a government subsidy for low-wage paying firms whereby the taxpayers have to make up the deficiency in the original wage. (Similarly, taxpayers pay for injured employees of firms who don't provide health care...just another effective subsidy.)

P.S. I ran this by my ECON prof and he said he "basically" agrees.

[Eaglebauer]

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I missed the part of your post where you explained why Pelosi pisses you off so much.

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Rush has been using a sinister sounding voice inflection whenever he says her name for at least the past year. Do you need any more reason?

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[Knockwurst]

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Man I am really sorry, I thought you were just giving me a hardtime. I looked it it like stoping at a redlight, I just couldn't see how anyone could think otherwise, especially a Democrat who cared about the future of their party.

She has fitmly stated she will immediatley raise the minimum wage, poof, there goes the economy. She has stated that she will tie up the current Executive branck with special investigations, poof goes the chances for a Democrat to win the Presidency in 2008. Shall I go on? OK, one more, just last week she said how terrible the current economic condition of our coutry had become during the Bush administration to include high unemployment. Can't she even read a newspaper or GAO report? Poof went her credibility.

Jimbo

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I know that you are a staunch conservative, but your post really highlights the baseless demonization of Speaker Pelosi. It played well to the conservative base -- a San Francisco Democrat, a woman, and ther you have it. But if your main objection is her desire to raise the minimum wage and how that will somehow ruin the economy -- seems like you're really grabbing at straws.

As far as investigations of this administration -- it's called oversight, something the GOP Congress forgot to do for the last six years. The people have the right to know what this admiinistration has been doing for the last six years in its run up and planning of the war and occupation, its secret prisons, the torture of detainees and surveillance of Americans. Maybe you're willing to go along with this administration when it says "trust us", yesterday the American People said they will no longer blindly trust this administration.

Bring on the investigations!

[John21]

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If increasing the minimum wage makes the economy go poof, why havent states that have done this on their own gone poof?

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Perhaps you should investigate the three main States that have done this, analyze their economy and then hide and watch.

[/ QUOTE ]You oppose the increase of the minimum wage but you do not say by how much; therefore, one would assume you oppose any increase. This, in turn, would mean that you're not too fond of the very idea of a minimum wage.

Well, almost the whole of Europe has minimum wage legislated. The United Kingdom had its national MW passed in 1999 and the British economy is not doing too badly. Neither is the whole of Europe, come to think of it.

Here are the cliff notes:

Contrary to myth, many European countries are better positioned for the future than the United States, with healthier economies and longer healthy life expectancies, greater math and science literacy, free or affordable education from preschool through college, universal health care, less poverty and inequality and more corporations combining social responsibility with world-class innovation.

Among the world's 100 largest corporations in 2005, just 33 were U.S. companies while 48 were European. In 2002, 38 were U.S. companies and 36 were European. CEO-worker pay gaps are much narrower at European companies than American. Americans work over 200 hours more a year on average than workers in other rich industrialized nations.

Mickey Brausch

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Mickey,

I believe there are some social benefits to having a higher minimum wage, but it comes at a price to the overall health of the economy.

Where technology is increasingly becoming a substitute for labor, many companies faced with increased labor costs will find it cheaper to automate jobs rather than paying the mandated higher wages. Essentially replacing the guy washing the dishes with a dishwasher. A similiar scenario happened with the auto workers union, where robotics became a viable replacement.

So aside from the direct economic cost, the entry-level or low skill job market shrinks - effectively harming the very people the minimum wage laws are designed to help.

The other factor is that something like 60% of the minimum wage earners in this country are suburban teenagers, and I'm not sure this is the segment of our society that is in the greatest of need of help.

So while I agree there is some social good in providing some sort of assistance to those on the lower rungs of the economic ladder, I think it could be done more efficiently, and applied more judiciously through tax cuts for the lower income brackets.

[Copernicus]

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Well, almost the whole of Europe has minimum wage legislated. The United Kingdom had its national MW passed in 1999 and the British economy is not doing too badly. Neither is the whole of Europe, come to think of it.

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Unemployment numbers, pls tks.

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Contrary to myth, many European countries are better positioned for the future than the United States,

[/ QUOTE ]

Because...

[ QUOTE ]
...with healthier economies and longer healthy life expectancies, greater math and science literacy, free or affordable education from preschool through college, universal health care, less poverty and inequality and more corporations combining social responsibility with world-class innovation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily true. Regardless, it is biased as sh1t.

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Among the world's 100 largest corporations in 2005, just 33 were U.S. companies while 48 were European. In 2002, 38 were U.S. companies and 36 were European.

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This is relevant how?

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CEO-worker pay gaps are much narrower at European companies than American. Americans work over 200 hours more a year on average than workers in other rich industrialized nations.

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Cool, more irrelevant statistics.

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You expect relevance from MB? New to the forum?