Short Stack Play

[El_Hombre_Grande]

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You cannot make implied odds calls with a short stack. If you want to, you must play with a full buy in. Either method can be profitable, but you can't play deep stack poker with a short stack.

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Just to expand bc it seems like the poster doesnt understand implied odds, using implied odds, you must consider both the size of your stack and the size of their stack. I cant make a call preflop for 1/4 my stack with a low pp hoping to hit a set because it wont hit often enough to be profitable for that much payout. It doesnt matter if I am playing against deep stacked players.
As for the question at hand, short stack strategy is different and you shouldn't find yourself resorting to a lot (granted some) coin flips. Be aware of the size of the pot and your folding equity.

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Umm, yeah, sure. But your stack size matters. That would be deep stack poker--ie a stack large enough to benefit from hands that require substantial implied odds. I didn't think we needed to discuss that because the hypo is how to play a shortstack. And if you can give me any single example when a shortstack should be voluntarily playing a speculative implied odds hand, I'll revise. Otherwise, I'll stick to pushing quality hands in against deep stacks who may be attempting to lure other deepstacks into an implied odds hands. The profitability from a shortstack comes from the inability of a deepstack to get the correct odds when you push over their small pp small raise or their 98s small raise. That's the main advantage of a shortstack-- the ability to not give the right implied odds to deepstacks in pretty much any instance. There are others - for example some players just take small stacks less seriously-- but at its core smallstack theory is a manipulation of the implied odds that deepstacks are laying to other deepstacks.

[afadeyi]

1. i do understand implied odds.
2. one point i was trying to make is that since your range is so limited (good starting hands) you have an information disadvantage and that usually creates a situation where you risk your whole stack against a bigger stack...who can take shots at you or put you all in and/or call an all in if they're getting the right odds.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

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1. i do understand implied odds.
2. one point i was trying to make is that since your range is so limited (good starting hands) you have an information disadvantage and that usually creates a situation where you risk your whole stack against a bigger stack...who can take shots at you or put you all in and/or call an all in if they're getting the right odds.

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1. Read Skalansky-Miller. You are clearly missing the point. "Your whole stack" is no big deal, and that (in this very limited instance) is precisely how it can be used as a sword. The flip side of it you cannot get proper odds on your own implied odds hands in almost all instances.

2. You will be the one "putting it all in" if you are playing a shortstack correctly. The point you are missing is youe are shortstacking in order to "get it all in." You are not getting bullied because the hands you are playing are primarily those that you want it all in with.

[Lion]

Short Stack Play options:

1. Raise
2. Raise ALLIN
3. Fold

NO CALLING/LIMPING!!!! And don't call raises preflop. RERAISE ALLIN or FOLD. Being shortstacked, the only implieds you should be thinking about is when YOU should be going allin.

[afadeyi]

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1. i do understand implied odds.
2. one point i was trying to make is that since your range is so limited (good starting hands) you have an information disadvantage and that usually creates a situation where you risk your whole stack against a bigger stack...who can take shots at you or put you all in and/or call an all in if they're getting the right odds.

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1. Read Skalansky-Miller. You are clearly missing the point. "Your whole stack" is no big deal, and that (in this very limited instance) is precisely how it can be used as a sword. The flip side of it you cannot get proper odds on your own implied odds hands in almost all instances.

2. You will be the one "putting it all in" if you are playing a shortstack correctly. The point you are missing is youe are shortstacking in order to "get it all in." You are not getting bullied because the hands you are playing are primarily those that you want it all in with.

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you're an idiot...i've read nlhtp

[afadeyi]

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Short Stack Play options:

1. Raise
2. Raise ALLIN
3. Fold

NO CALLING/LIMPING!!!! And don't call raises preflop. RERAISE ALLIN or FOLD. Being shortstacked, the only implieds you should be thinking about is when YOU should be going allin.

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this is preciesly my point, when short stacked you're basically all-in or fold. thus reducing many situations to a coin flip. Ex...lets say I hold A.K. on the button, with 3 limpers and I move in...I'm basically 60-40 to win against any random holding.

That's why i suggested that the advantage of short stacking don't seem to apply to an experienced player like myself, because as an earlier poster stated, i can achieve a higher win rate with a bigger stack when I have the opportunity to take some implied odds situations/play some poker.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

Umm, I win short stacked. You don't, and asked how to win.

Several things you have said make it absolutely crystal clear why you are losing money playing shortstacked.

But whatever. You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make him drink.

[Nsight7]

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Short Stack Play options:

1. Raise
2. Raise ALLIN
3. Fold

NO CALLING/LIMPING!!!! And don't call raises preflop. RERAISE ALLIN or FOLD. Being shortstacked, the only implieds you should be thinking about is when YOU should be going allin.

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this is preciesly my point, when short stacked you're basically all-in or fold. thus reducing many situations to a coin flip. Ex...lets say I hold A.K. on the button, with 3 limpers and I move in...I'm basically 60-40 to win against any random holding.

That's why i suggested that the advantage of short stacking don't seem to apply to an experienced player like myself, because as an earlier poster stated, i can achieve a higher win rate with a bigger stack when I have the opportunity to take some implied odds situations/play some poker.

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You know, you really ought to quit calling people idiots when you are asking for help. Don't bite the hand that feeds you and all.

At any rate, your AK is 60-40 against any reasonable holding. However, what hands are likely to call you if you are in position and seen two limpers. Perhaps large stacks with dry Aces or maybe AJ-AQ, in which you would be 70-30 or so. Also, with AK vs an underpair you are about 45-55, but with say two limpers plus SB and BB as well as the fold equity limpers get for their hand, they may well just hand it to you without a fight. In any event, only rarely will you be at a big disadvantage. Plus, if you make these moves in position and raise JUST enough to get it heads-up with one caller, you could still bail if the flop looks sick and the villian puts the rest of your stack in. At any rate, only one of the situations above is a coin-flip really, and I feel like your expectation with the correct move would more often than not be higher than 60-40 given the above (but hell, 60-40 is still pretty good).

And of course you won't just be moving with AK either.

However, you are right, in general an experienced player (say one of the two best players at a table during a session) probably would do better to just avoid this strategy. Still yet, if you can't achieve +EV with it, I doubt you are implementing the strategy correctly.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

A short stack strategy is most beneficial at a table where there are a lot of deep stacks. If you are trying to apply a short stack strategy at a table full of short stack, you're not applying it right.

[Gonso]

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"You can get into the game with lesser risk and you can always buy in deeper if it seems apropiate to you, but never remove chips from the table once they are on."

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No, that's against the rules.

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It is? [...] I was pretty sure it's possible online (never played in B&M).

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Sorry, I was referring specifically to removing chips from the the table, not adding them. You can add-on anytime, at least up to the table limit.

Also, OP, you really have to read the GSIHE chapter on this. The NLHETAP bit isn't as complete. If you're finding SS play to be equal to coinflipping, you're not doing something correctly, you should be showing marginal wins over time, especially at the lower limits.