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Old 11-09-2007, 06:46 AM
diebitter diebitter is offline
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Default FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing them

These are sort of obvious, but I hope they prove useful to some, and get some deeper conversation on this going.


Cliff Notes: The smaller the stacks, the more the winning game is about playing big cards and dumping cards that benefit from implied odds - and playing ABC. Conversely, the bigger the stacks, the more then winning game is about cards with implied odds' value, not top pair value - and more deceptive play becomes significant. Also, the bigger the stacks, the greater importance position plays.

You should adjust to this when considering effective stacks.
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20BB shortstack: This requires you play an effective shortstack strategy. This can be as tight as jamming preflop w/AA-QQ, AK or a little more like Miller's guidelines on loosening this range depending on position, and using standard raises preflop to potbuild with the knowledge you usually will have the best of it. It can be even more refined, like spotting table looseys who love stealing, and jamming with any PP if they raise, knowing you most likely are a little ahead in a race if he calls. Or, for example, there's ranges of hands you can always profitably push against a lone player if you're 20BB or less that are mathematically impossible to beat long-term: some good SSers would know this range (I do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

Position doesn't really matter that much. And most of the play if preflop and flop, so it's usually a 2 street game.

30-50BB stacks: Here, big cards are still what it's about, but here you can start using SPR theory, as it's very easy to hit a target SPR (say 4 against your average player) at this size stack, with the intention of getting it in by the end when you have TP or overpair. You can also limp PP late, and maybe even other speculative hands if the table is loose-passive. You can't profitably take any preflop heat with these though. Position is more important, but still not THAT important, card strength is still the more significant issue in the main (IMO). These are usually 3 or 4-street games.


50-70BB: This is the size I find most tricky. You can still hit SPR's okay if the table is loose and takes stiffer raises, but it can also mean standard raises get you intomultiways, which makes your big cards suffer from reverse implied odds. Also if you're playing speculative cards like SC and Axs, you're not gonna profit by a full stack if you hit. This is compensated somewhat by people being more willing to get it in when it's not that deep, but I'm not sure the benefits outweigh what you're potentially leaving at the table. Position becomes way more significant here. Most often 4 street games.

100BB: Well, play big cards early, speculative late is the usual TAG mantra, but this standard buyin allows good LAGS to really play hard at a table, winning lots of small pots and setting up an image that allows a TAG to get stacked against the 'maniac'. AA is still solid, but must be played with some care. Deceptive play becomes much more profitable here, both in pushing people off, wrong-footing people, or scaring them early (say at the flop) and making them (consciously or subconsciously) play ABC in the later rounds. Position is significant, but decent lags are way less worried about it than TAGs, and usually have enough in their arsenal to counteract this somewhat (frequent use of checkraise, using minraise etc).

Also, this level works against big pairs somewhat OOP because of SPRs and triskadekaphobia (read PNL if this makes no sense to you), so that is a consideration.

150BB+: Aces are no longer the fantastic hands they appear, but still reasonable.


200BB+: Bad news for big cards - you're playing them for set value mostly, and won't get action back the times you hit your set unless someone is drawing to a set-beating hand. Almost, ATC can be called profitably here by good postflop players, as they got odds to flop 2 pair or trips, never mind about the assorted straight and flush draws you can get with any two reasonably wired cards. And frankly, out of position == out of the action for most good players here (but not for REALLY good players, it should be noted).

One final note. The only really good hand at all levels is AKs. AA is pretty good most of the time though.

Like I say, these are somewhat random thoughts, wondered if you guys have any comments?
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  #2  
Old 11-09-2007, 06:52 AM
AllTheCheese AllTheCheese is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing them

[ QUOTE ]

50-70BB: This is the size I find most tricky... This is compensated somewhat by people being more willing to get it in when it's not that deep, but I'm not sure the benefits outweigh what you're potentially leaving at the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol I stackoff to these guys a lot. I think "One pair's good for 55BBs" but I don't think I've ever gotten in against one of these assh0les without them flipping a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #3  
Old 11-09-2007, 06:54 AM
Split Suit Split Suit is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing them

100% agree on 200bb+. i think any good player can play ATC at a crazy profit 200+ effective. (if all else fails...get tangled with a nit and just pot/pot/push, and they fold everything but nuts and second nuts).

i think 150bb+ becomes any 2 suited cards that can make a str8 (95ss has a buttload of value).

obvi think position is more important than ur cards. most good players shud b able to destroy at 150+ in position, reguardless of their cards.

at 10-30bb its all about big cards with direct value, rather than implied value (cuz AT>>>>>76, cuz no implied value in drawwin and hittin with no stack to draw and hit on). i think pf becomes the most important street against these ppl, and a leak against these ppl, will cripple ur WR (i think it comes out to about 2-3.5bb/100)
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Old 11-09-2007, 06:59 AM
Sounded Simple Sounded Simple is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing them

Nice post DB

Am I right in thinking that position goes waaaay up in value the deeper the stacks are?

Say you have AA or KK, with 200bb effective stacks, on the button you can opt for pot control when you prefer. When you hit a set you have more leverage to build that big pot.
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  #5  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:00 AM
diebitter diebitter is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing th

Yeah, as soon as Split Suit mentioned position I thought - holy crap I didn't even mention position!

I went back and did some additions about position, so your post and Split Suit's post will look a bit weird now - sorry guys.
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:01 AM
Split Suit Split Suit is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing th

always some1 tryyin to make me look bad =)

(nice post tho...)
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  #7  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:09 AM
diebitter diebitter is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing th

Also, you obv need to revert to the appopriate strategy when the effective stacks are in these ranges. You can be a 1000BB deep, but if you're playing HU with a guy who is 40BB postflop, then your first consideration should be it's now a n ABC game with a focus on SPR considerations.


To this end, I think a player who really wants to develop a good game sould fit in his schedule sessions playing 20BB and 40BB deep and 60BB deep.

(Likewise 6-max and even HU ring games now and again are worth trying.)
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:02 AM
uminchu uminchu is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing th

i think this is a quality post and appreciate the thought put into it dieb
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  #9  
Old 11-09-2007, 08:58 AM
ActionStan ActionStan is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing th

I like to think of position in terms of the value of the button. The button is always the most valuable position on the table. Seat values have more or less a hockey stick shape. Pretty flat until the hijack and rising sharply from there. The values of those seats is also strongly influenced by effective stack sizes. Small stacks, the value of the button is more or less the value of your hand, but you get to see what the other guys do, so some value. The value increases exponentially from there. Once you pass 250BB, it should be a difficult decision to fold the button in all but the most obvious of cases. The value of the CO and hijack increase also, but not nearly as much unless there is a weak player on the button. Deep stacked, the quality of the player and the quality of the position start to outweigh the values of the actual cards.

So, short stacked the hockey stick is laying on it's side. Deep stacked the hockey stick is blade down and ready to play.
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  #10  
Old 11-09-2007, 10:15 AM
RiverMustelid RiverMustelid is offline
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Default Re: FR Theory: Random thoughts on different stack sizes and playing th

The 70BB type players are interesting to me.

Often they are trying to reduce the profitability of set mining, due to the smaller rewards of a successful catch. As a result these players are very willing to stack off with JJ+ as overpairs. In my opinion the attempt to simplify the game by saying I can now take this action 100% of the time makes them quite vulnerable.

Ie the prize is only 7/10ths the size, but the likelihood of getting it is large enough to offset this. Against these players cold calling AA, KK in late position to an EP raise can be a very profitable strategy.
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