KQ turn spot

[PokerSparky]

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Call down 100% of the time here.

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[PartyGirlUK]

Call turn, maybe raise river.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

"ILP, there is plenty of information available: the strength of your hand for that board, the general tendency of players in that game to overplay weaker hands vs. their tendency to wait for the turn to check/raise with their very strong hands."

We have no information about this opponent meaning there is no way we will no how to react to a 3bet. As far as the tendencies of the average player in these games....Well I dont play on the Stars 15-30 game, but I do play in the FT 15-30 and AP 15-30 all the time, and this turn check/raise still = two pair or better most of the time.

"One reason I (and probably most of us) can't answer this question that well is that we don't have access to a lot of the peripheral info that was available to BK."

Exactly, If you dont know, call down. Limit holdem really is that simple in many cases. BK has not given us enough information to conclude that any line is better than call down. And this leads me to another point. Calling down should be everyone's default play here. 3betting the turn or call raising the river UI or folding the turn should be read-based plays in this situation, and all we know is this guy is a moron, thats not enough.

"Often, if it is close I take a cautious approach and just showdown here without a further raise. Sometimes, I use very marginal clues to put in one more aggressive action. It could be something as obvious as seeing check/raise second pair on the turn before to seeing him fastplay a flopped two pair earlier."

Sounds good to me, thats how I play poker.

"I think your standard for information is way too high here. Yes, it would be nice if we had played 1000 hands versus this guy and watched each one carefully, and then it would be obvious what to do. But it wouldn't take a whole lot of information for me to suspect this player would play almost all Kx hands like this, and if that were the case I would definitely be looking to put in another raise on most rivers."

Trust me, my standard for information is not too high here. Just like you Sweetjazz and most 2+2ers I am adept at making very good inferences even after just 1 hand. We essentially have no information on this guy.

[Zobags]

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But it wouldn't take a whole lot of information for me to suspect this player would play almost all Kx hands like this, and if that were the case I would definitely be looking to put in another raise on most rivers.

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I that were the case, isn't it better to 3-bet the turn? That way we get maximum value against a semi-bluff, and he will still call down with Kx or middle pair.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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But it wouldn't take a whole lot of information for me to suspect this player would play almost all Kx hands like this, and if that were the case I would definitely be looking to put in another raise on most rivers.

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I that were the case, isn't it better to 3-bet the turn? That way we get maximum value against a semi-bluff, and he will still call down with Kx or middle pair.

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Yes if we knew this guy would check/raise this turn with many Kx type hands then 3betting the turn would be the best play, but we dont know this about our opponent.

[ssmallz]

I call down mpst of the time here and I usally hate myself for it when they show down K8 or some flopped set. I'm not raising here at all w/out a read.

[jstill]

if we re enough ahead of his range we want to put in another raise (ie he cr's enough Kx hands or plays some other worse made hands this way or semi-bluffs enough) why is 3betting the turn best? if we assume he follows through with a semi bluff we make no more off him UI and i think the difference in skylansky bucks of getting 2 turn bets against him with partial equity vs one and one river bluff bet with 100% equity more than makes up for any times he ck folds UI with a semi bluff doesnt it? maybe not.

plus are u checking behind a flush river if u 3bet the turn or calling a donk or always bet folding, he hsa more implied odds vs us with semi bluffs if we 3bet the turn, that has to hurt the overall ev of that line vs calling and popping the river.

also waiting we dont lose air or stupidly played PPs and i feel much better responding to a river 3bet than a turn cap since wed have atleast 2 outs probably, debatable there i suppose but even if i call a river 3bet i have lost no more bets than if i 3bet the turned and called down a cap (not saying we necessarily should raise this river tho just talking about 3betting the turn vs calling to raise a blank river conceptually).

[vmacosta]

bicyclekick has stats on this guy which means he's played with him a bit which means he's stolen his blind a few times and bet down with some marginal crap.

Which means this guy probably hates him and will take this line with many K's feeling happy that he finally suckered this agro bastard into putting a bunch of action in when he has the nuts.

So trying to get a 4th bet in on the river at least some of the time seems very appropriate (certainly any 4, Q, K and probably a few others like 3d/9d/td/jd).

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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if we re enough ahead of his range we want to put in another raise (ie he cr's enough Kx hands or plays some other worse made hands this way or semi-bluffs enough) why is 3betting the turn best? if we assume he follows through with a semi bluff we make no more off him UI and i think the difference in skylansky bucks of getting 2 turn bets against him with partial equity vs one and one river bluff bet with 100% equity more than makes up for any times he ck folds UI with a semi bluff doesnt it? maybe not.

plus are u checking behind a flush river if u 3bet the turn or calling a donk or always bet folding, he hsa more implied odds vs us with semi bluffs if we 3bet the turn, that has to hurt the overall ev of that line vs calling and popping the river.

also waiting we dont lose air or stupidly played PPs and i feel much better responding to a river 3bet than a turn cap since wed have atleast 2 outs probably, debatable there i suppose but even if i call a river 3bet i have lost no more bets than if i 3bet the turned and called down a cap (not saying we necessarily should raise this river tho just talking about 3betting the turn vs calling to raise a blank river conceptually).

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I dont know which line is better between 3betting the turn and calling the turn and raising a blank river. A lot depends on how wide the villain's range of lesser made hands are, and also the villains ratio of semi-bluffs to these lesser made hands, and to a lesser extent how often the villain will bluff the river assuming we call the turn and how often the villain will have a hand drawing very thin that would fold to a turn 3bet.

[MAxx]

i call down almost all the time. when i dont, it is usually some kind of impulsive play. i think calling down is correct.

if you 3 bet and are capped, i do not see calling down being profitable without some really juicy info....which presumibly we do not have.

I have 3bet here some for a "free showdown" but I think the right reason for that would be that you are up against someone who likes to cr semi the turn a bunch and then rarely follows thru UI. (and I dont bump into this breed)