A 10-20 hand I played.

[Carmine]

You guys really want to bet/fold that turn. How can you trust anyone even a passive not to raise any Ace to try and scoop up the other half of the pot.

[Carmine]

Guru, OP states button is a tight player not a fish.

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]
The BTN is a tight/passive player who plays very predictably postflop. He's one of those nice guys that will never make a move without the goods becuz he doesnt want to upset anyone. This type of player is very common at the 10-20 level in live play. Theyre there to have fun, they want to make a little money and they dont want anyone to dislike them. The fact that he limped on the BTN, and didnt raise the blinds like he shouldve is another indication that hes just trying to be a nice guy cuz he knows that raising is the correct play, and he surely would raise if he had a premium hand, and he would surely fold with a garbage hand to let us chop, but with a hand in the middle he'll just call cuz he doesnt want to be known as a "Stealer".

[/ QUOTE ]

tight passive is still passive and passive=fish to me. He's there to have fun, not to take our money.

[waffle]

A8o BB

Preflop: I think it's close, but if he knows what you know and your adjustments I can't fault him for calling. +1

Flop: Horrible, terrible, no good flop raise. See me after class. +0

Turn+River: I guess there's not much you can do now other than bet/fold both streets. +2

3/4

Dunno, could we say he has to chk/fold the turn after the tight pssive guy coldcalls 2? would he fold Ax?

[Kwaz]

Preflop: Live play is boring. Easy call.

Flop: Unlike others in this thread I like your friend's flop raise. He knows you can lay down an Ace here, most often it will buy him absolute position, he gets all the information he needs, never gives the fish a chance and there's no way you can 3bet with a worse hand. Calling does nothing for him. There is no way that you bet a turn without a better hand than his after getting called on that flop, so there's no extra money to be made from a WA/WB line.

Turn: silly bet.
River: worse bet.

2/4

[ILOVEPOKER929]

Ok, this is what I told my friend in the car ride home.

PREFLOP: I told him its a fold. Although my rage is wide, its not gonna be that wide. My approx range is gonna be 55,A2s,A8o,KJo,KTs,QTs,JTs. And although A7o beats some of those hands, my friend is never going to be able to extract the equity share he deserves becuz A7o plays so badly postflop. If the flop comes out T52. My friend is just gonna fold. So even when he has the best hand hes gonna fold the winner alot. And when he actually hits his hand hes going to be up against two players that are very unlikely to pay him off with a lesser hand. So when he hits he'll only get action when hes second best, and he'll have to payoff all the way if I have a better hand cuz he doesnt trust me. So becuz of all these problems, I truly believe that folding preflop is the best course of action. So its 0/1 at this point.

FLOP: I think the flop raise with Ax is a bad play vs me cuz I'm just gonna fold with a lesser hand, and when I have a better hand I'm gonna extract the maximum. So this flop raise is just setting him up to get owned. He also doesnt need to raise the flop to protect his hand cuz theres no lesser hand that the Tight/passive can correctly call with for one small bet. Even if the Tight/passive had a hand like QJ, if my friend just smooth calls the flop, the BTN will be getting 8-1 to call. Getting 8-1 on a gutshot draw closing the action is still not enough when two pair is already out. At best its a neutral call which means my friend should be indifferent to whether a hand like QJ/QT/JT sees the turn, so he doesnt need to try to get this hand to fold. 0/2.

Kwaz: Just letting you know that I would never lay down an Ace to my friend here. It was only the combination of him raising and the Tight/passive coldcalling not closing the action that made me muck my cards like they were on fire. However you do get some bonus points for recognizing that raising the flop may be the best play vs me cuz calling the flop will likely kill his action anyways. I have always believed that whenever youre against a good player and you know a call will kill your action, you are usually better off raising instead. And youre right Kwaz, I will never 3bet my friend with a worse hand, but I will 3bet the flop or checkraise the turn with the same type of hand often enough that he will never fold when I have do have a better hand, and thats a big problem with raising this flop. Your idea about raising the flop is still valid Kwaz against certain players, but I was really looking for an answer that involved no history or metagame considerations, so you went a step further on that one.

TURN: Kwaz, Sharpie and Carmine all nailed this one. Once the tight passive calls the flop raise, he either has Ax or Kx. Since the tight player either has the same hand as my friend or a better hand, and he will bet both hands if checked to, betting cannot possibly be better than check/calling unless we had a read that the tight player would never raise the turn with Ax. He may be passive but he still may raise with a boat. 0/3

RIVER: The same logical problem that Kwaz, Sharpie and Carmine figured out still exists on the river. Theres no point in betting since the Tight Passive will surely bet the river if he has Kings full or Quads, so once again betting actually loses money in the long run becuz bet/folding here may not be entirely safe since the passive play may raise his boat on the river assuming he has the nuts, and bet/calling here also loses money since my friend will only chop or lose. So the final tally is 0/4.

I think whats interesting about this hand is it is rarely correct to check and call vs a passive predictable player. This hand just happened to be an exception to the rule. If youre HU OOP against a passive player and you know he has the same hand or a better hand and you believe he will bet both hands if checked to and he is capable of raising both hands if you bet, then check/call becomes the superior line.

So on the car ride home I told my bestfriend that he went 0/4 and to stop sucking at poker. His reply to me was "Stop whining like a [censored] bitch, I shouldve 3bet your ass preflop!" 3betting is actually better than calling since he is now more likely to realize his equity when he has the best hand, the Tight passive will always fold to this 3bet thus putting dead money in the pot, and lastly even if I have a better hand like AT I am gonna be in a very tough spot postflop should I miss. Naturally I didnt tell him all that cuz I dont like getting 3bet preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I quickly changed the subject to whether or not the Pistons were gonna win it all this year and we were friends again.

BTW: Carmine is the clear winner in this thread. He said 0/4 and mentioned preflop was a fold, and the flop raise was bad, and he nailed the turn and river.

[waffle]

[ QUOTE ]
He may be passive but he still may raise with a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I think this kind of player would just call because he knows he's probably splitting against another ace, gaining no value, or he's giving Kx extra action.

I think bet/fold is better because it allows you to get away for 1BB when he has Kx and raises instead of spending 2BB c/cx2.

[27offsooot]

Your friend: 0/4
This post: [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]/4

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He may be passive but he still may raise with a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I think this kind of player would just call because he knows he's probably splitting against another ace, gaining no value, or he's giving Kx extra action.

I think bet/fold is better because it allows you to get away for 1BB when he has Kx and raises instead of spending 2BB c/cx2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think theres a good chance youre right waffle, but the problem is I am not 100% certain, I have a pretty good read on his play but I am not positive he's smart enough to figure out that there is no value in raising the turn with Ax.(assuming the passive player doesnt know my friend is bet/folding Ax here) Sometimes people get blinded when they have a big hand and make mistakes. If my friend check/calls the turn and river he will never fall victim to this mistake.

[waffle]

PREFLOP

You're going to autobet with all of your hands, even on an Ax flop. Say you raise w/ KTs, and the flop comes A9x. You bet, your friend raises, and everyone else folds.

Fine. He didn't get any post flop action. But he risked 1sb and picked up a net of +6sb that offsets the times he's going to fold the flop.

But wait, he didn't risk 1sb, he really risked 3sb when he raises the flop, and 7-8sb if he's always going to take it to showdown.

Ok, so it looks something like this:

Calls and folds flop: -1sb
Calls, flops a hand, gets no action and takes it down: +6sb
Calls, flops a hand, gets action from a better hand: -7-8sb
Calls, flops a hand, gets action from a worse hand: +10-12sb

You said the last one never happens but it happens sometimes. Sometimes you will have a lower suited ace and pay him off or the BB will flop two pair.

It's closer than you say. You can't just say that he's in a reverse implied odds situation so it's a fold. There's still a decent amount of money in the pot preflop compared to the investment he's making by calling. If we could somehow increase the money in the pot preflop without increasing the number of players he's against or increasing the strength of the hand ranges he's against, it would be a call even if most of the time he's not getting action from a worse hand.

I think the best way would be to quantify how often the above four happen by looking exactly at the hand ranges and how often they flop stuff.