Heaven on Earth

[vhawk01]

Rarely do I spend much time contemplating Heaven, but I had occasion to do so today. A few things confused me, and seemed like obvious contradictions, at least to my naive perspective on the topic. I'm wondering if anyone can set me straight.

How can Heaven be any better than life on Earth? I'm constantly told that you cannot have joy without sorrow, happiness without sadness and good without evil. I am also told of the primacy and sacredness of free will. So, I know that the most important determinants of my joy and happiness are that I am free to choose unhappiness and that I suffer at times, in order to better enjoy my pleasure. But I'm also told tha God cannot tolerate sin, and that Heaven is being with God. So, my question is, is there suffering in Heaven? Can I choose to do wrong?

I assume the answers to these are no, I cannot suffer, and no, I cannot choose to do wrong or sin. This follows from the idea that being with God means being without sin. But I am curious, how do these ideas impact my free will? If I cannot suffer and I cannot choose to sin, obviously I do not have free will. Is that just not a big deal up in Heaven? And if that is the case, why is it so cherished here on Earth? I am often told that the reason Adam HAD to be tempted was because creating a world free from sin would have created a human race of automatons. So....how is Heaven different? Why was the Earth ever created in the first place?

[Subfallen]

I hope you provoke some ambitious responses. Should be interesting. In the meantime, since I have no thoughts of my own, I quote Darrow, "It is amazing what confidence people feel that the Being who made this life which is a failure would do any better with another. Most people instinctively feel that God couldn't do worse; and yet we are constantly told how much worse he can do and probably will do for most of the people of the earth."

[godBoy]

As I understand it - You will be a different person in Heaven, your spirit is the same and you have your memories from earth. But you would have no desire to sin.

is there suffering in Heaven? Can I choose to do wrong?
no. - But your experience of earth would make Heaven all the sweeter.

[Matt R.]

Big disclaimer: this is my opinion on the matter, no more, and I certainly don't claim absolute knowledge about this (just to get those replies out of the way).

I personally believe that, if there is a heaven, as commonly described in some/most Christian religions, that there exists suffering in heaven. Of course we are then no longer talking about the "common" view of heaven I suppose. So basically, when I say heaven I am referring to an afterlife in the presence of God, or in the kingdom of God if you prefer. So at its base it is like the Christian view, with a twist on one of the details.

Basically, I view "heaven" as consciousness without the physical. Thus, you can suffer if you choose to experience suffering -- by distancing yourself from God, by interacting with someone/something that causes suffering, etc. However, the fundamental difference between the suffering in heaven vs. on Earth is the lack of the physical. In our lives, if we are suffering via our sensory perception, we cannot remove it. If we're hungry and can't acquire food, we can't stop it by simply choosing to stop it. If we bang our head on something and it hurts, we can't stop the impulses being trasmitted to our brain and thus to our sensory perception. However, in heaven we lack the physical limitations, and we can therefore choose to end the displeasure by removing the harmful interaction (whatever that may be).

I hope that is at least somewhat clear. If not, suffice it to say that I think there is suffering in heaven, but the difference from Earth is that there is never *inevitable* suffering. In other words, we can always choose to have it stop. It can therefore be accurately described as a place of "eternal happiness" (I have no problem with this description... I just don't think it can fully encompass what heaven would actually be like).

I actually prefer the Buddhist view of nirvana to that of heaven (if this gives any more insight as to my position). I think that heaven (and/or nirvana) is fundamentally unknowable or indescribable, so the only use in attaching words to these concepts is to make them more accessible and understandable to those that wish to communicate ideas about an afterlife. But, in actuality they can never be described fully. We can only use metaphor and describe the concept in terms of what we "know" -- our physical world.

I was looking for a good quote that I remember reading attributed to the Buddha, but I couldn't find the exact one. However, I found another one that I like:

"Now you will ask: But what is Nirvana?
..The only reasonable reply is that it can never be answered completely and satisfactorily in words, because human language is too poor to express the real nature of the Absolute Truth or Ultimate Reality which is Nirvana. Language is created and used by masses of human beings to express things and ideas experienced by their sense organs and their mind. A supramundane experience like that of the Absolute Truth is not of such a category.
Words are symbols representing things and ideas known to us; and these symbols do not and cannot convey the true nature of even ordinary things. Language is considered deceptive and misleading in the matter of understanding of the Truth. So the Lankavatara-sutra says that ignorant people get stuck in words like an elephant in the mud. Nevertheless, we cannot do without language. (p35)"

I don't know where this quote is from exactly... just found it off a website. But it sums up my view very well (no, I'm not a Buddhist, lol. I just like a lot of their ideas). I also realize the Christian view of heaven is different than the Buddhist idea of Nirvana -- but I think both of them are fundamentally indescribable (hence my use of the quote).

[MidGe]

"Extinction of greed, extinction of hate, extinction of delusion: this is called Nibbana "(S, XXXVIII, 1)

[vhawk01]

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As I understand it - You will be a different person in Heaven, your spirit is the same and you have your memories from earth. But you would have no desire to sin.

is there suffering in Heaven? Can I choose to do wrong?
no. - But your experience of earth would make Heaven all the sweeter.

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So, how will I not be a mindless automaton? If this is the optimal solution, why isn't Earth like this?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As I understand it - You will be a different person in Heaven, your spirit is the same and you have your memories from earth. But you would have no desire to sin.

is there suffering in Heaven? Can I choose to do wrong?
no. - But your experience of earth would make Heaven all the sweeter.

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So, how will I not be a mindless automaton? If this is the optimal solution, why isn't Earth like this?

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How do you know that it isn't?

[roblin]

seems i will be some very diffrent person in heaven so i guess my personality etc dies. so i really dont se the diffrence of dying if heaven exists or not.

[carlo]

[ QUOTE ]
21:1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. 21:2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 21:3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 21:4 He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away

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Revelation of John

[carlo]

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21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.” 21:10 He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 21:11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, as if it were a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 21:12 having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. 21:13 On the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb. 21:15 He who spoke with me had for a measure, a golden reed, to measure the city, its gates, and its walls. 21:16 The city lies foursquare, and its length is as great as its breadth. He measured the city with the reed, Twelve thousand twelve stadia. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 21:17 Its wall is one hundred forty-four cubits, by the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 21:18 The construction of its wall was jasper. The city was pure gold, like pure glass. 21:19 The foundations of the city’s wall were adorned with all kinds of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; 21:20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, jacinth; and the twelfth, amethyst. 21:21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls. Each one of the gates was made of one pearl. The street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple. 21:23 The city has no need for the sun, neither of the moon, to shine, for the very glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 21:24 The nations will walk in its light. The kings of the earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. 21:25 Its gates will in no way be shut by day (for there will be no night there), 21:26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it so that they may enter. 21:27 There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

22:1 He showed me a* river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, 22:2 in the middle of its street. On this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruits, yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 22:3 There will be no curse any more. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants serve him. 22:4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 22:5 There will be no night, and they need no lamp light; for the Lord God will illuminate them. They will reign forever and ever.



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