Floorperson Ruling on Verbal "Call"....

[mingorama]

Recently saw an interesting situation at a local SoCal Casino... wondering if anyone can comment on whether or not this was a correct ruling. In a relatively large pot, a player moved all in after the river card was dealt. His opponent, a loudmouth, spent quite a bit of time making his decision, speaking out loud about his chances of having the best hand. At one point, he began a sentence with "If I call you....", at which point the all-in player turned over his cards, with clearly the best hand. The loudmouth proceeded to proclaim that he never called, and mucked his hand. Floor was called over, and he ruled in the loudmouth's favor, after other players offered that he never said "I call". The player that took the pot said he heard the guy say "F- it, I call", and so he deserved to have the rest of his all-in bet matched by the loudmouth. I think the floorman made a mistake... talking out loud before making a decision is one thing, but once you use the word "call", I would assume that's binding, regardless of the context. Who's right here?

[GreedIsGood]

The floor-man made the right call. From the description, the all-in player was angle-shooting. If the talker was clear and loud enough the the other players knew he hadn't called, he hadn't called.

Yes, you do have to be careful what you say at the table, but saying "I'm not going to call." isn't a call just because the word 'call' is in the sentence. This was no different.

[mingorama]

Fair enough. I just always make sure the dealer acknowledges a call before turning over my hand, but I did think the all-in player had a point. Thanks for the input.

[Photoc]

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Fair enough. but I did think the all-in player had a point. Thanks for the input.

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No he didn't. He needs to protect his action and ask the dealer for confirmation before he takes it upon himself to start the showdown.

[RR]

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Fair enough. but I did think the all-in player had a point. Thanks for the input.

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No he didn't. He needs to protect his action and ask the dealer for confirmation before he takes it upon himself to start the showdown.

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This is an important point that needs repeating. Becasue the size of the bets can very widely in NL, the original bettor has an obligation to verify that the caller understood the amount he was calling (by seeing him put that amount of chips in the pot, or by him saying the amount he was calling).

[bav]

Using the word "call" in sentence is not calling. "I don't recall when I've had such a tough decision" is not calling. "I may have to call a cab when this hand is over" is not calling. Yeesh.

[psandman]

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Using the word "call" in sentence is not calling. "I don't recall when I've had such a tough decision" is not calling. "I may have to call a cab when this hand is over" is not calling. Yeesh.

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Yeah, but . .

Player is across the table. he speaks very low. the only word heard at my end of the table is "CALL" don't I have a point about a player who chooses to mumble so only the people next to him can hear him clearly. Doesn't he have an obligation to make his words clear?

Its not quite as clear as you suggest. This might be shot taken by the player who made the statement.

[AngusThermopyle]

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Doesn't he have an obligation to make his words clear?



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You have an obligation to make sure he really called before you expose your hand.
Did he put chips in the pot? In the OP, no.
Did the dealer turn to the player as if to say 'You were called, please show your hand'? In the OP, no.
Did the player have any indication, other than a fragment of a sentence from across the table in a noisy poker room, that the player called? In the OP, no.

"I interpreted what I thought I believed I heard as a call."

[psandman]

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Doesn't he have an obligation to make his words clear?



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You have an obligation to make sure he really called before you expose your hand.
Did he put chips in the pot? In the OP, no.
Did the dealer turn to the player as if to say 'You were called, please show your hand'? In the OP, no.
Did the player have any indication, other than a fragment of a sentence from across the table in a noisy poker room, that the player called? In the OP, no.

"I interpreted what I thought I believed I heard as a call."

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My point is that its not that simple. Sure the player hearing the call should wait for some sort of confirmation, but the player making the statement also has an obligation here.

A while ago i told a story about another player in a game I played who I heard say "All-IN" when I grabbed my chips to call he threw away his hand saying that he had only said" What would you do if I put you all-in?"

In my case I had to let it go because both myself and the other player deal in the room, and he is a regular player (and good tipper). But I made sure that every floorman heard that story. Why? Because if he does it to another player and the floor gets called, I want the floor to know that this isn't simple misunderstanding . . . this is an angle by a player who has done it before. Because its not that simple and all the information the floor man can get will help make a better decision.

So if your in my room and this player pulls this move on you, do think thats its only relevant that you didn't wait for the player to move his chips? Or is it also relevant that he has a history of making this move?

or in the case of the OP, would you change your mind if the player making the statement mumbled everything else at a low volume, but the word CALL was made much louder? It should matter because thats an indication that it was a shot, and if it was a shot what the player wanted was for the other player to only hear the word "Call" and as far as I'm concenred that would be a call. We don't know what happened here . . . my only point is that it isn't fair to autom,atically assume that the player trying to enforce the Call is in the wrong here.

[bav]

So a few weeks ago I got caught by this... I've flopped a monster and someone is betting into me. On the river I check and kinda stare hard at the board to make it look like I'm trying to find something there, so I'm not looking up. 5 seconds later I hear "check"; I sigh and turn over my cards. Everybody asks "what are you doing--he hasn't acted". "I heard him say 'check'". Well, no...the DEALER said "check", echoing my action 5 seconds after I did it. *SMACK*

Should the dealer have to pay me something for that? No...I shoulda looked around and gotten some sorta confirmation as to who said what. Yes, it was a very clear and very loud "CHECK" that I heard. Alas, it wasn't from the player in the hand. But a player who is misheard or misunderstood isn't held any more liable. I understand the frustration, and yeah some people do such things intentionally as an angle. But someone who mumbles isn't responsible for someone else making assumptions about what he says. When all you have is something verbal, tread carefully.