Big, elaborate multi-street bluffs in 3bet pots @ 200 NL

[hongster]

Hero should be viewed as pretty taggy, and has shown no previous spew. These 2 hands occurred at different tables.

Hand 1:

Villain is MP and runs around 45/38/4, so very aggro.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $198.00
BB: $213.30
UTG: $674.20
MP: $206.75
CO: $341.00
Hero (BTN): $245.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $7.00</font>, MP calls $7.00, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $28.00</font>, 3 folds, MP calls $21.00

UTG had very high PFR, so I felt his range was wide, even from UTG. I expect him to fold most of the time being OOP. MP (villain) has been very aggro and active, so I felt he would have 3bet the original pfr with a real hand. So this is a pretty textbook squeeze play. A bit surprised with villain calling the 3bet oop.

Flop: ($66) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $42.00</font>, MP calls $42.00

Standard cbet on ragged flop. Repping JJ-AA, which I have about 80% of the time in these spots (I don't really get out of line).

Turn: ($150) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $150.00</font>

Time to pull the trigger for real. I expect this to fold mid pairs that may still be hanging around (66-99). I don't expect many hands holding a T to be around given the flop action, and this may fold them out too. Plus villain may be trying some nth level thinking with an oop float intending to bluff river (though doubtful). Oh, and I picked up outs.


Hand 2:

I have a note on villain saying that he 3bets quite a bit out of the blinds. With that in mind...

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $177.45
BB: $221.70
UTG: $203.00
CO: $635.15
Hero (BTN): $238.25

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7.00</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $25.00</font>, Hero calls $18.00

Fairly standard button raise, BB 3bets, and I call intending to make a move postflop. I often flatcall these spots with big pairs too.

Flop: ($51) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $33.00</font>, Hero calls $33.00

Float, obv.

Turn: ($117) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $95.00</font>

Complete the float with a near-PSB. Obv have to call a c/rai since villain does not have much behind the bet, and I have outs.

So what does SSNL think of these hands? Like it, or am I just spewing?

[jeccross]

I like em as long as you don't make em too often. I reckon they're both +EV as long sa you're not appearing loose and the villains can make folds.

[Asgrow13]

Hand 1 I'm probably checking behind. It just seems to me that if people call you on the flop in a 3bet pot, they aren't going anywhere. Its really tough for him to call the flop with 77-99 anyway given the strength you've shown. If he has 66 or TT, I'm so happy to take a free river and try to hit a flush on him and stack him. Maybe I just don't have the balls for this type of play though.

Hand 2: I started doing stuff like this a lot more against opponents who I notice 3bet a lot out of the blinds. I like it, especially when you pick up a flush draw on the turn. Nh, in my opinion.

[docnuclear]

I think they're well thought out, you're repping sthg and you have outs so I like it as part of a balanced strategy that can incorporate some bluffs to put opponents to guessing and increase winrate. I should consider this.
PS you should have a read that they can fold too...

[hongster]

[ QUOTE ]

PS you should have a read that they can fold too...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a good point. I should start making notes of opponents that I notice folding in 3bet pots. I usually only make notes on stuff like weird raises/calls, 3bet frequencies, and donkeyfish behaviour.

[sixhigh]

Both are legitimate, but have some flaws imo.
#1: Villain is most likely not a good player and probably doesn't respect you too much. If this is the case, I'd rather take a real hand and punish him than rely on his folding abilities. This double barrel would be way more effective against any random 2+2-fish or any player that can "dodge bullets".
#2: Might work or you might run into a stack-a-donk. Checking behind and betting/raising most rivers would be sexy (and allows you to take the free card).

But as I said, i don't mind both hands and guess both are +ev if balanced correctly.

[hongster]

[ QUOTE ]

#2: Checking behind and betting/raising most rivers would be sexy (and allows you to take the free card).


[/ QUOTE ]

I always find that when I bet the river I get looked up ultra light, since the river bet screams like exactly what it is: a bluff. Legitimate hands bet for value/protection on the turn almost always.

Raising river bets is a bit better, but I still don't like it much. Feels a bit too FPS.

[orange]

1-PF is whatever. I prefer not squeezing UTG players but meh.

Flop fine. Turn is also okay (as is checking). I think his range is like a medium strength hand that can't stand a ton of heat. I think you SHOULD have a decent amount of FE here (as most players will c/r AI with QQ and the like on the flop).

2-fine. Once you call that flop, you generally will bet most turns. (though this one can also be a check on the turn, as getting c/r-ed would suck balls and with position you can formulate a plan better). Checking behind the turn and maybe shoving the river (or betting) could be a plan too. (if we miss/hit/whatever).

[Imrahil]

People don't fold to turn bets in 3bet pots. Hand 1 is an easy check behind.

[HoldEmNewby]

Hand 1 is spew, check behind the only thing that might fold is 77-99 and even that isn't a guarantee given stats.

Hand 2 i'm not happy how you got there unless you feel villain gives up on turn easily, but bet $100 on the turn and i'd say NH.