3-betting with a bad hand

[Punisher]

I play lots of loose games featuring many idiot players. I think that I fold too many hands against loose pf-raisers and cold-callers that should have EV+, but I'm not sure.

Say villain1(100/100) alias double big blind raises from UTG and villain2(80/0) cold-calls.

Is this a 3-bet with A5o on the Button?
I have good equity against both players ranges. By folding I waste it, but on the other hand I don't feel very comfortable by jumping in. Especially because it is very likely that the pot becomes multiway.

[Oink]

I'd prolly 3-bet A8o and A5s here. Cant say why but those seems like good cutoffs to me. I am open to suggestions tho.

I'd also play about 55, K8s, KTo, QTs, JTs. 3-betting all of them

[Punisher]

I would definately play all the hands you listet. But with QTs, JTs I would rather cold-call to encourage multiway action.
K8s is close, both cold-calling and 3-betting should be ok.

[counterspell]

i can't imagine you have <35% equity with A5o vs. those ranges, so yeah easy 3ball. i don't have stove on this computer though.

an interesting question to me is how much the playability of our hand affects this decision. for a RIO hand like A5o, do we want more in this spot or is 35% okay?

[gehrig]

u should be playing an enormous range of hands here

plenty hands that have an equity deficit should be played here. hands that are ahead u shouldnt even have to think about. folding like q4s is bad here

[gehrig]

[ QUOTE ]
i can't imagine you have <35% equity with A5o vs. those ranges, so yeah easy 3ball. i don't have stove on this computer though.

an interesting question to me is how much the playability of our hand affects this decision. for a RIO hand like A5o, do we want more in this spot or is 35% okay?

[/ QUOTE ]
there are no reverse implied odds hands here except maybe stuff like 32o these guys are retards

[counterspell]

could you explain why gehrig? simply position + obviously terrible players?

3betting q4s?

[gehrig]

if the blinds will fold regularly then just from a hot and cold standpoint u gain by 3betting tons of hands.

like if u have 30% equity 3ways and u 3bet, the blinds fold and everyone calls, then u have put in 3 of 10.5 bets into the pot when u have 3.15 bets of equity so u show an immediate profit.

its not that simple of course bc u have to play postflop but with the button against horrible players u should be able to make profitable decisions

[maka2184]

This is obviously dependent on how the blinds play as well I'm guessing but when you 3 bet JTs against these LAGs isn't it costly at times because they are so showdown friendly and our hand doesn't have much showdown value?

Or does this not even matter because they play so bad and we're in position with a hand that will get paid off extra when we hit even a small a piece?

What would our plan be if we wiff the flop completly in these spots. Oink didn't suggest but if you 3 bet like Q4s or K8 you have to double barrel most situations right (then again these are VPIP 80+ players) or I guess this is too situation dependent and not a good question. Sometimes double barrel if you can isolte to HU vs one player after the flop. Sometimes take the free card and call off rivers lightly etc (call off rivers with most pairs as long as pots HU)?

How do we act accordingly if the blinds are actually solid players but they have changed their styples completly because of these high VPIP players? Because they might 4 bet lightly or call 2 cold out of BB etc whether that be correct or not it's not every day you get two players who are 80+VPIP and they might be playing worse because of them. Even then I guess 3 betting weak hands are profitable since you will win big if you 3 bet a real hand + they are committing massive amount of chips OOP against a decent player (assuming we are looked at as decent) whose hand rage could be wide because of the situaiton and either way they are in a tough spot.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
Oink didn't suggest but if you 3 bet like Q4s or K8 you have to double barrel most situations right (then again these are VPIP 80+ players) or I guess this is too situation dependent and not a good question.

[/ QUOTE ]

2nd barreling too much vs these kind of players is a leak. If I 3-bet JTs and the flop comes Q76 with a fd I am not betting any turn if it stays 3-way. If it gets HU it depends.


The thing is if you start 3-betting Q4s here, observant players behind you will start capping ATo. I hate disagreeing with gehrig so I wont say that Q4s shouldnt be 3-bet. Just saying that if it gets capped loose behind us we should tighten up.

But I do agree that we should play a LOT of hands against these guys. Both of them have any2 hands in their range