3-betting the flop for protection

[carrotsnake]

Y'all don't play poker much if you NEVER see this get called by worse ...

[DrRock]

not a bluff, but = to one.

[carrotsnake]

Ok, now I don't agree with Tick, arguing for FE in this spot is just bad, this is not the reason to play a hand like this

[keikiwai]

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just push if you're going to do this, i think it could be marginally profitable

but i usually just call

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Im curious, why do you prefer to push the flop instead of make a raise that he might call with draws, and then push any turn?

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because it looks like you're 100% out of your mind bluffing or pushinig some sort of draw, so you'll get called by all sorts of wacky stuff... it's not a line i normally would use, but i think it's good every now and then

the problem is that we really don't want to see too many turn cards... this makes calling and pushing any turn problematic, since you'll get outdrawn pretty often and thus called on the turn...... you'll get called by more things you're ahead of on the flop than on the turn

[cowpig]

grunch:

sexy line here is call flop and crai if the turn brings a safe card or an offsuit overcard.

[delta k]

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Okay, you might be right with that post.

But I want to make something clear, even if it doesnt apply here.

Just because he doesnt call with anything worse, doesn't automatically make it a bluff. And even if you want to argue semantics and call it a bluff - so be it. But that doesnt change the fact that theres a ton of scarey turn cards, and taking the pot NOW (or getting him to put in max dollars with drawing hands) is of vital importance.

Our fold equity in a pot like this is significant, which is actually a big part of my agrument.

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Our fold equity versus unpaired hands that aren't drawing to straight or flush is wonderful.

Our fold equity versus an overpair (lol) or strong drawing hand is 0.

A c/r folds the overcards. A donk generally does, unless you think he's aggressive enough to be raising w/ them in which case we have to b/3bet or not lead them in the first place.

So basically you're talking about FE versus unpaired hands with no strong draws- and he's repping a hand that is either an overpair or a strong draw. That is one reason I have a problem with this.

On the turn sure, a lot of bad cards can come. But that is generally GOOD for us, since if we c/c we can lead a flush card or straight card, if we desire. He'll also check back some hands (oh no free 6 outers) or fire a second barrel- we don't know because you've yet to include an aggression factor.

All your talk about fold equity makes it seem like you're trying to get him to fold a better hand. We aren't, because he never will. We're trying to get him to fold overcards for crying out loud! But check this- we have 75% equity against those overcards, so we'd rather he bet them and we call (and, for this example, check it down) that us lead and he folds- we want money going into the pot when we have 75% equity, that's when we DONT want folds! Leading into him gives him the chance to fold his overcards.

Now, one more thing to consider, I raise flops w/ overcards when Im' the PFR and someone leads into me all the time, but this is a horrible board for it since you're only leading here w/ sets (3 in range), straight draws, flush draws and monster combo draws. You can't really have a TP hand to be donking into me. So if I held overs I'd just drop them and move on.

[Tickner]

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Ok, now I don't agree with Tick, arguing for FE in this spot is just bad, this is not the reason to play a hand like this

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I'm not play just for FE. But he will fold a lot and taking the pot right now is great, since we likely arent WA.

What I meant was, we are relying on him folding some % of the time because if he never folds its obv bad because we dont have that much equity vs hands that want to felt.

[Tickner]

delta, good post, however check/calling the flop and then leading a scarey turn card isn't better than b3betting imo. It turns our hand into a complete bluff, when we shouldn't be completely bluffing - at least on the flop he will call our raise with draws, overs, etc. On a scarey turn, he will only be playing with hands that now have us murdered.

Also, its irrelevant that you yourself raise this flop with overs.

[ValarMorghulis]

I don't like donking because we give up free cbet money with the massive range of hands that raises and misses the flop. It's one of the great things about just calling preflop.

So I like either c/call or c/raise depending on many things. Normally I'll just c/raise. It's kinda turning our hand into a bluff but not really because villain can call with draws and stuff like A7 (and sometimes I'll c/r and get it in.) Another advantage of c/raising is we get protection against the large number of hands that are behind, won't call a raise but have outs to improve and beat us. Also by c/calling we may get outplayed on scary turns.


c/call followed by turn lead doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me compared with c/raise as you give him an extra card to improve and beat our hand.

[delta k]

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delta, good post, however check/calling the flop and then leading a scarey turn card isn't better than b3betting imo. It turns our hand into a complete bluff, when we shouldn't be completely bluffing - at least on the flop he will call our raise with draws, overs, etc. On a scarey turn, he will only be playing with hands that now have us murdered.

Also, its irrelevant that you yourself raise this flop with overs.

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Fine tickner, I give up. I have no more patience for this thread.