Cut-Off vs Tough button 3-bettor

[J.A.Sucker]

The problem in spots where you have a weak, but possibly best hand, yet there are lots of bluffing/semibluffing cards out and to come is that you never know where you are or what you are rooting for. You need to decide whether to go on or not. If you do call the turn, you pretty much commit yourself to the river most of the time. That's why small pairs suck in these spots, and your buddy's reasoning can't be wrong against a tough player.

If you do decide to play on, how would your foe play a pair between 55-77? Would he ever fold if you initiate the action and bet the turn out? Just as important, would he semibluff raise you with a hand like AJ on this board?

How would he react to check-raising on this turn? This might also be a decent play to make against some.

Check-calling is also fine, but I know it seems lame. All the options suck, but they are all possible, depending on the player. That said, this is a reason why small pairs are lousy in these spots with tough players - there's just no "play" to them and it feels like you end up mucking the best hand more than you should or you wind up paying off when you shouldn't.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I checkraise the flop a lot here but it must be the case that if I never check/call with a pair here I'm making a mistake, so the flop check/call seems fine.


[/ QUOTE ]


Given the times you do c/c, what is your turn play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know I always CR [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Jesse, I think given the prevalence of the belief that if you c/c turn you need to c/c river, you can make the dreaded c/c c/f if villain is like-minded. Alternatively, I don't hate a line of CR flop, bet/call turn raise and check/fold river, though if the guy has the heart to fire that last shell your mistake is obviously magnified.

It sucks being OOP to good players [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

[Crusher19]

[ QUOTE ]
"but i just feel there's better spots to put in big bets"

This is a high stakes CASH game. Waiting for better spots is rarely if ever a consideration...this is the spot

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is the spot, then this shouldnt be a thread. you think my idea of saving big bets with an under pair on a board like that is not the best idea then call turn call river. i wouldnt mind calling the turn against some players if you think will freeze on the river and not fire the 3rd barrel, but you said this is a tough opponent. i try to battle with the weaker players in the game in tough spots like this.

[eviljeff]

[ QUOTE ]
calling just makes the river play that much more difficult

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl fold pf then

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
"I'll take a shot at what the tough friend said about check/folding the turn - could it be that a good tough opponent will recognize the Queen as a really bad card and therefore if he bets again he has a pair of some sort (which we beat basically none of). "


Well, I think the friend was basically saying that I dont beat the guys range enough to call twice, and I dont have enough info to call once and then fold the river UI.

I am not so sure I agree, in fact I always just call twice here if I didnt put in action on an earlier street. Unfortunately this is possibly a leak cause they almost always show me a hand better than mine

[/ QUOTE ]

Your friend must not be looking at the pot size and your equity. You win this over 30%.

You said, in particular, that he was Stoxtraderish, and you know what the Stox advice is in these heads up pots when you are the preflop aggressor. Bet the flop when checked to 100%. On the turn, you should generally bluff because of the pot odds. He is getting a fantastic price to bluff. Why must he have anything? He can fold if you check raise But not betting the turn should only be done when he has a hand with showdown value and he feels you are an aggressive player against whom he may induce a bluff by checking the turn.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling just makes the river play that much more difficult

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl fold pf then

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. You should not open raise with small pocket pairs if this is how you intend to play heads up pots.

[Peter_rus]

I like raising often this on flop representing some possibility of flush/straight draw forcing opponent to often call down to SD with A-high if no spade comes and pushing him out of hand if 3-d spade comes on a board.

If i called flop i do not like aggression on turn especially because my hand has so much SD-equity. I'd save my bluffs for hands that have lesser SD-value and will be hopeless on river UI.

I don't like folding turn as well especially if i think - turn bet is auto on such drawy board for this opponent. there is a lot of Ax hands i beat as well as some other hands like 22-33, 56s,KJ. I fold it only if i spot that opponent checks turn with margin hands often.

If i call turn - i call/fold river by feel and occasionally c/r if J,A or spade comes. I feel ok randomly believing 3rd barrel with my margin pair especially if i didn't see that guy take free SD with too strong hands like A8 in such spots.

[tongni]

I must be really out of touch with LHE these days, seems like a pretty standard fold most of the time.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
I must be really out of touch with LHE these days, seems like a pretty standard fold most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back to stud8.

-Brad

[Kayber2]

I'd probably checkraise the flop to try and get a feel of where I'm at. If i just called (which is a nice viable line) I'd call turn and reevaluate on the river. Often I think we can fold the river to guys who have aggression levels of say 2 on the flop and turn but maybe 1 on the river.