Emotional Affairs

[Blarg]

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That might be why things can seem complex and threatening to you that aren't really -- because you are flying by the seat of your pants and haven't really made peace with yourself as to who you really are and what you believe.

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Good post (all of it, I just snipped for brevity). I'm not in flux or confused. I'm pretty sure of who I am, what I feel, and how I want to deal with it. I'm at peace with my nature. I also recognize dangers inherent in my nature, or perhaps more correctly, limitations I have due to it.

Just like I've come to terms with some physical limitations (sports injuries have taken their toll), I've come to terms with emotional/mental ones as well. I might regret I have them sometimes (man, I wish I could still compete in sports...), but oh well.

Sorry if I gave the impression of a guy in conflict [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Just an interesting topic, largely because so many people have a belief of what's right or acceptable, but rarely examine that belief.

"No, he can't go to a movie with his female friend!". Why? If you said "He can't skydive without a parachute!", well, duh, there's a pretty clear reason why not. But in the case of the movie the reason is often buried in emotion, insecurity, culture, and often these source are even conflicting.

I just find it an interesting exercise to ponder. And, actually, frequently makes me rethink my own position on things because I realize I've reacted at a gut level, not a rational level, on some issues.

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Yeah, I've been kind of getting the idea in your posts that you are willing to look around at the issues from different sides, maybe even play devil's advocate, so my reply was more general than specific really, taking "you" more as the series of ideas you put forth than necessarily a close representation of who you are.

I actually do respect people who are careful about their limitations. I just think we shouldn't either try to impose them on others and proscribe their behavior, or be so afraid of our own limitations that we cut ourselves slack for the rest of our lives on trying to move beyond them -- however slowly and painfully. Limitations are natural, but I think we often sell ourselves very short, just because it's so much easier and less scary, and what we claim as our limitations often aren't even close to them. I think most of the best things I've ever done, and most of the best ones I can still conceive of doing, involve struggling against my limitations, not snuggling up close with them contentedly while waiting for that long dark oblivion.

[Blarg]

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i think people tend to overestimate the control they have over their desires/emotions


edit: sorry, not saying you do. i just think lots of people set themselves up for failure assuming they can get out when necessary/spot the problem b/f it happens.

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The question remains whether the gamble is worth taking. To me it seems clear that cutting off friendships with half the human race just because I might be tempted is a real and immediate loss, especially as: a) I've been tempted before gotten over it -- being tempted doesn't scare me; and b) I'm going to be tempted anyway, whether I like it or not. I don't believe not having women friends will do a thing to stop someone from cheating, because saying cheating comes from external circumstance is a pure cop-out and total baloney. Cheating comes from the inside out, not vice-versa.

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i don't equate not taking the gamble w/severing all connections that could result in temptation

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That's good. Neither do I. Any adult should be able to do quite a bit of fine-tuning as to where the line should be drawn.

[gusmahler]

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Massages - Are you crazy?


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What's wrong with a massage?

b

[/ QUOTE ]I think Katy (and I) thought that "massage" meant a massage from a friend of the opposite sex. A good massage means you have to take your shirt off. I think you can see the problem of you taking off your shirt at your female friend's house. Or your female friend taking her shirt off so you can rub her back.

[bogey1]

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Massages - Are you crazy?


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What's wrong with a massage?

b

[/ QUOTE ]I think Katy (and I) thought that "massage" meant a massage from a friend of the opposite sex. A good massage means you have to take your shirt off.

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Off topic, but a good massage usually means you're nude or in undies at most (covered by a blanket for warmth on whatever parts they're not working).

[Blarg]

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Cheating comes from the inside out, not vice-versa.

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Well, it's not quite that simple. Studies have shown impulses are easier to control if you aren't in situations to have to control them. One I recall reading was 2 people were trying to diet (or had a bet, or some such).

One had a plate of cookies next to them. The other didn't. Who do you think slipped up and ate a cookie?

It takes a combination of motive and opporunity for an action to occur.

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Yes, but one is dead without the other. If you don't have the motive, the opportunities are a non-issue.

Do you love your wife and are you truly committed to her? Are you sure you know what that means, for both of you?

If not, again, the main problem has nothing to do with that outside cookie. And you will see a million cookies over your lifetime. If you don't resolve your own problems and understanding to some kind of measured adult understanding, you will invest entirely too much drama in cookies.

[tarheeljks]

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That's good. Neither do I. Any adult should be able to do quite a bit of fine-tuning as to where the line should be drawn.

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how do two adults reconcile a scenario where they have drawn two different lines? let's say i treasure the sexual experiences i share w/my wife/gf, and i also think sex with other women is harmless b/c it's purely physical and has no bearing on how i feel about her. then let's say she believes i shouldn't be sexing anyone but her.

what's the deal; is this even reconcilable? you referenced pushing past limitations, is that the case in such a scenario? are you viewing my wife as being close minded, or me as being disingenuous/irreverent?

[bogey1]

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Cheating comes from the inside out, not vice-versa.

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Well, it's not quite that simple. Studies have shown impulses are easier to control if you aren't in situations to have to control them. One I recall reading was 2 people were trying to diet (or had a bet, or some such).

One had a plate of cookies next to them. The other didn't. Who do you think slipped up and ate a cookie?

It takes a combination of motive and opporunity for an action to occur.

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Yes, but one is dead without the other. If you don't have the motive, the opportunities are a non-issue.

Do you love your wife and are you truly committed to her? Are you sure you know what that means, for both of you?

If not, again, the main problem has nothing to do with that outside cookie. And you will see a million cookies over your lifetime. If you don't resolve your own problems and understanding to some kind of measured adult understanding, you will invest entirely too much drama in cookies.


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Not sure I'm grasping your point. Are you saying that, if I were congruent/at peace/whatever, then I'd never feel desire for another woman and thus no motive? If so, I can pretty safely say I'll never be that "at peace"... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[bogey1]

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That's good. Neither do I. Any adult should be able to do quite a bit of fine-tuning as to where the line should be drawn.

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how do two adults reconcile a scenario where they have drawn two different lines? let's say i treasure the sexual experiences i share w/my wife/gf, and i also think sex with other women is harmless b/c it's purely physical and has no bearing on how i feel about her. then let's say she believes i shouldn't be sexing anyone but her.

what's the deal; is this even reconcilable? you referenced pushing past limitations, is that the case in such a scenario? are you viewing my wife as being close minded, or me as being disingenuous/irreverent?

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Good, and probably common, example. The classic "it was just sex" line comes to mind.

The answer, for me anyway, is the same as any potentially conflicting personality traits. Slobs often can't live with neat freaks. Someone loose with money has problems with a tightwad. Etc.

The difference in views on sex is just another one of those, and yes, it can be an inreconcilable difference in views.

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Well if you are with someone and you are not a match for them as far as deeply held beliefs go, either someone needs to change their beliefs or you need to break up and find someone more suited to you. Unless you are willing to settle for less. And two such deeply dissimilar people should probably not get together in the first place, at least for long.

I view either party in your scenario as simply being themselves, and have no problem with either.

The limitations I'm talking about overcoming are not things such as religious and sexual preferences(not the hetero/[censored] kind, you know what I mean). Those aren't really limitations per se. They are orientations and choices. Someone who simply feels differently than you do doesn't not necessarily have any limitations to overcome.

I'm talking about fearing things unduly or being too negative or unmotivated -- not simply chosing otherwise while in full command of one's powers. I'm talking about senseless and fearful inhibition, so much so that you don't take action and expand your capabilities, accomplishments, and joy in life. Now for some people, hitting those high points and living to the full might mean sexing raccoons or cheating on your marriage, but I'm thinking of things that could more properly be thought of by most as some sort of accomplishment.

[duckman]

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Is there really that much difference? I don't think I would find it comforting if my girlfriend said, "Oh, I have a special connection with this guy but we don't touch".

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Good god you don't tell them you have a special connection Cobretti! I'm only telling you guys cuz, you know, it's an anonymous forum and I'm confiding. But hell no i wouldn't tell him that i had a connection with some engineer who recently left our office. You think I'm an idiot? The point is that a girl can have a "cool" friendship (i'm sick of the word *special*) without wanting to have an affair. I think that was the point but I'm sort of tired so I'm not really sure anymore what i was babbling about [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

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This whole thread is so delusional. You think this is an intellectual discussion. Its not intellectual, b/c its not intellect that drives this behaviour. Its our emotional and physical needs.
The engineer who cooked for you, the one you can't tell your partner how you felt about him -you think that's OK?

Sounds like this thread is an attempt to assuage your guilty conscience.

When kids enter into the equation I would like to see how many women are going to have time to hang around with cool men. And vise versa. And if your partner is rich and sucessful I doubt that you will like him hanging around "cool" girls, after you have children especially as you age. Men an women ulimately do not get together to "share cool stuff". It is all a dance to bring us together to mate and ultimately have children.

I have been married 17 years and have covered this ground. There is the excitement and potential of something new and when we settle down (or are on the verge of) there is a feeling of loss no matter who is our partner. I think the movie "The Last Kiss" captures this quite well.(Be warned not a date flick)

But we all have limited time and most of us have limited resources, and if you are flirting and getting close to someone else when you are in a committed relationship it is b/c there are deep primal needs within us. My personal experience is that no one and nothing can fills those needs except ourselves.
You and the enginneer never had to get down to the dirty work of a real relationship and remained in the "romantic" -(he cooked dinner for me) phase. This is only the most shallow level of human interaction where our romantic partner is only a egoic projection of who we want someone to be - not a real person.
The emotional energy you could of put into yourself or your "committed" relationship was lost in this form of relationship masturbation.

And while I think defintions may vary, the litmus test of inappropriate is - would you have behaved differently had your partner been there? Any relationship that you can't tell your partner about necessarily falls into this category.