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  #61  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:15 PM
APXG APXG is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

crush,

with regards to buffett and the estate tax, i would also vehemently oppose a massive transfer of funds to the government. however, i oppose even more endowing children with more than a few million dollars upon death. the estate tax should be instituted in some way that simply encourages all ultra-high net worth people to donate 90%+ of their money to charity or some other tax-exempt cause -- exactly as buffett did himself.

even if there is a 100% estate tax, you don't necessarily have to give a penny to the govt if you believe they will misuse your money. just find someone who will build libraries, fund research, cure diseases, whatever you want, etc. in your name. many, many people have voluntarily done this, much more efficiently than any government ever could have -- we should encourage more to do the same, rather than promoting aristocracy and the construction of dynasties which eventually become populated with members who resemble nothing of the very traits that made its patriarch so great.
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  #62  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:16 PM
vetiver vetiver is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

"the average american is worse at managing his money than even the us government, so THEIR money is actually best off in the govt's hands."

What are you talking about? The gov't allocates money in the least productive means possible. It spends at an unprecedented deficit, transferring as much imaginary treasury money as it can get its hands on to special interests -- namely, defense contractors that subcontract jobs in the Middle East and take a nice profit off the top for doing no work.

At least your average, "fickle" Joe can spend his own money on something he derives utility from: a home, car or dinner. Also, I think people would be prone to invest more if they had more idle money... something that would be achieved by cutting taxes.

---

I don't understand Buffett's complaint. He understands the importance of minimal taxation on capital gains, evidenced by his proposal of unlimited IRAs.

The only other issue is the 95k cap on SS, but that's an illegitimate tax to begin with. People are perfectly capable of saving that 6% themselves and probably have a higher return. If they don't save it but buy things instead, they can liquidate that stuff when/if the time comes they run out of money. In any case, it's not governments' job to make sure our nest egg is there for us at x years. It's also not their job to make sure my bed is made and tuck me in at night. I especially shouldn't be paying SS when I'm not going to be receiving any of it.

So unless I'm missing something, the marginal tax rate is slightly higher (due to progressive income tax levels) for richies than poor folk if you subtract SS and capital gains. Richies are rich so they can afford it, poor folk are poor but they can reap the benefit of 1% richies paying for like half of the army's new destructive toys.
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  #63  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:18 PM
vetiver vetiver is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

[ QUOTE ]
crush,

with regards to buffett and the estate tax, i would also vehemently oppose a massive transfer of funds to the government. however, i oppose even more endowing children with more than a few million dollars upon death. the estate tax should be instituted in some way that simply encourages all ultra-high net worth people to donate 90%+ of their money to charity or some other tax-exempt cause -- exactly as buffett did himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jealousy isn't the right way to go about public policy.
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  #64  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:31 PM
maxtower maxtower is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

I changed my avatar. I had just linked to some random picture on the internet, so I hope that didn't cause anyone to get a virus.
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  #65  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:39 PM
APXG APXG is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
crush,

with regards to buffett and the estate tax, i would also vehemently oppose a massive transfer of funds to the government. however, i oppose even more endowing children with more than a few million dollars upon death. the estate tax should be instituted in some way that simply encourages all ultra-high net worth people to donate 90%+ of their money to charity or some other tax-exempt cause -- exactly as buffett did himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jealousy isn't the right way to go about public policy.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really think i'm jealous of those people?

maybe of brian townsend or howard schulz or richard branson or others who got to incredible heights thru sheer determination that was likely instilled in them by amazing parents / friends / environment that i didn't have, but certainly not some member of the hilton or rockefeller family. i pity them, as im sure does any person who derives happiness from the process of making money, and not the proceeds -- to quote mr. buffett. these guys never got the chance to enjoy the process, which brings more true happiness than any amount of money ever could -- not to mention far greater contributions to the advancement of society
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  #66  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:41 PM
scott1 scott1 is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

Ok, I read it.

I have even more respect for Warren Buffett than I did before.
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  #67  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:55 PM
DesertCat DesertCat is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

While I think Buffett is spot on about payroll taxes, I mostly disagree with him on estate taxes. I agree it's bad to have enormous inheritences, both for society and the recipients. I don't have a lot of money, but it was enormously difficult to come up with the right instructions in my will to ensure my kids work ethics and drive wouldn't be damaged by inheriting my estate.

But for the few benefits of the tax, there are many costs and some significant unfairness to it.

- It's another form of double taxation.
- It doesnt work i.e. reduce the gap between rich and poor. Its been in place almost the entire time the gap has grown.
- It prevents family businesses from being handed down, which should practically be a right.
- It forces families into expensive estate planning maneuvers that benefit Lawyers, not society, and they still end up avoiding the tax.
- Occasionally families don't do state planning properly or in a timely manner and they end up paying huge estate taxes while the clever with similar size estates pay nothing. That's blatently unfair.

Its kind of silly to point out the unfairness of our complicated tax system on one hand then to argue for more complication so you can toss another complication on top (a tax credit).

And I would also argue if you want to attack the gap between rich and poor, look first at the payroll tax issue. I believe the SS fix in the early eighties that saved SS created held back income growth among the poor and middle class by sticking them with an enormous tax increase that also increased unemployment by increasing employers costs.
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  #68  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:14 PM
CrushinFelt CrushinFelt is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

I read it again even though I thought I wouldn't be able to without throwing up on my keyboard. He says so many dumb things it's really hard to believe that they came from his mouth.

[ QUOTE ]
As mentioned, that $24 billion will come from about 12,000 estates. Indeed, half of that sum will come from only about 1500 estates. The beneficiaries of each of those estates will receive millions, in many cases tens of millions or more. One point you never hear from proponents of estate tax elimination is whom they would get the $24 billion from if they didn't get it from the 12,000 large estates.

They just say, 'Free us.' They don't say who to further shackle.

Here's a suggestion: Keep the estate tax and its $24 billion, reshape it if you will, but keep the estate tax and its $24 billion. Then take a look at the bottom fifth of America. There are 23 million households in the United States with $20,000 or less of income. Many are paying payroll taxes that now total 15.3 percent. That 15.3 percent alone is more than the rate on dividends or capital gains and more than the rate on carried interest.


[/ QUOTE ]

This deserved a big w t f.

He says if the gov't doesn't receive the $24 billion, then we have to get it elsewhere (presumably because the current use for it is important), but the rich don't say where it should come from.

Then he says to give $1000 to the 23 million poorest households. This is retarded for two reasons: 1) I guess $1 billion just disappeared (maybe its a typo) and 2) This is the exact problem he just stated. He is now taking the $23 billion from wherever it was going (which was presumably too important to not fund) and is now doing something else with it. So now where is he getting the extra $23 billion that he just took from wherever it was before?!

I am not one of the heirs that is going to be taxed by this, so it's a fair question to say, "Why do you even care?" The answer to this is simple. Where do you draw the line? There will always be pressure to say "just take a little more" or "well these other people are rich enough already too". Afterall, if $1000 doesn't matter to someone inheriting $10 million, why should $2000 matter? Or $5,000, $10,000 or even $100,000?! Could any of you honestly say that if you inherited $10 million today that you would "materially" notice that $100,000 was gone? Would you react differently if someone came up to you and said "You are inheriting $9,900,000 today" versus someone who said "You are inheriting $10,000,000 today"? Probably not. And that's why something like this would set such a horrendous precident. It would put the control of an arbitrary amount of someone else's money into another person's hands without their permission.

It's outright theft that Buffett is proposing.

Edit: I'd just like to add that the other major point, which I didn't note here, was pointed out by Desert Cat. It doesn't fundamentally help to solve the main issue that Warren brought up which is decreasing the gap between the rich and poor.
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  #69  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:48 PM
Badger Badger is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

For those in favor of the high or 100% estate taxes:

Why should the government have any right to take the money someone has amassed throughout their lives? Should they not be able to do with it what they want when they die? Sure society might be better off if they were forced to donate it to charitable causes or use it for government spending.

Couldn't you say that me blowing $100 at a bar could be better spent elsewhere, so might as well not let me do with it what I want?
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  #70  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:54 PM
vetiver vetiver is offline
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Default Re: Warren Buffet\'s Stance on Taxes

[ QUOTE ]

you really think i'm jealous of those people?

maybe of brian townsend or howard schulz or richard branson or others who got to incredible heights thru sheer determination that was likely instilled in them by amazing parents / friends / environment that i didn't have, but certainly not some member of the hilton or rockefeller family. i pity them, as im sure does any person who derives happiness from the process of making money, and not the proceeds -- to quote mr. buffett. these guys never got the chance to enjoy the process, which brings more true happiness than any amount of money ever could -- not to mention far greater contributions to the advancement of society

[/ QUOTE ]

The retardedness of an estate tax is not in the intention of denying half-brained Hilton princesses from inheriting hundreds of millions of dollars. It's in denying the rightful makers and owners of money the right to bestow it anywhere they see fit. This may be in the arts and libraries , like Carnegie and Getty did. It might also be in little gremlin children who we personally would like to strangle. But it's not our judgment to say who gets that money, because we didn't earn it.
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